Leaking water pump

macmattom · Postby **macmattom** » 20 Dec 2009 22:41

Success - it's out (or should I say they're out, all three of them). I now have three old water pumps, and after heeding advice from this site 2 will be thrown away - the shafts are really badly pitted so won't be getting used again. The best of the bunch isn't perfect, but will hopefully suffice for a year.

I've bought a rebuild kit from Rimmers and replaced all the parts, but I have a question. I have put the oil thrower on (concave face pointing towards the gear splines), pressed the new bearing onto the shaft, put the circlip on and pushed the oil seal down against the bearing, as instructed in jclay's instructions.

However, when I try to slide the thrower down, it fouls on the chamfered lip and there is a gap between the thrower and the oil seal, as can be seen in the picture below.

Can anybody tell me if this is okay, or should the thrower push the oil seal against the bearing? I would have thought it should hold the oil seal firmly against the bearing to stop it sliding up the shaft, in which case I need a new one. Here's the snag - no longer available from Rimmers, so they recommend buying a new water pump: they would, when it costs best part of Â£180 (ouch!!). I could, theoretically, use a socket of suitable proportions and try to "reclaim" the original cone shape of the thrower but I'd appreciate any ideas because once I know what to do I can proceed to rebuild the engine and have a go at starting it before Christmas.

Another glitch was that the brass cage remained in the engine block when the pump came out, but jclay's information says this is no drama, so I'll not try to get the thing out. Hopefully it'll all go back nice and sweetly - again, any tips would be appreciated.

Thank you all for your help so far, but this saga ain't over yet!!

Mac


The pheonix rises from the ashes - just give it time!

(two and a half years and counting - but who's counting!!)

http://s733.photobucket.com/albums/ww338/macmattom/

windy one · Postby **windy one** » 22 Dec 2009 16:11

I really cant help ya yet. Out of all the 7's Ive owned this is the first one I have to change the water pump on. Soon as it gets above 40-deg's in my garage Ill be tearing her down. Once I have the parts in my hands Ill know better how to explain stuff.

Good Luck![:D]

Johnny

Beans · Postby **Beans** » 22 Dec 2009 16:34

From the 3rd reply to this thread [:p]

1980 TR7 DHC (my first car, currently being restored)
1981 TR7 FHC Sprint (better known as 't Kreng)
http://tr7beans.blogspot.com/</center>

macmattom · Postby **macmattom** » 22 Dec 2009 18:14

Thanks Beans. It seemed so long ago that I read your blogs I'd forgotten about them. I have rebuilt my pump, but am left wondering about the thrower. The gap between the thrower and the oil seal goes against my intuition because surely it will allow the oil seal to ride up the shaft and expose the holes in the brass cage. The gap looks like it should be there according to Beans's photo, but can anybody explain how the oil seal will not ride up the shaft?

Am I reading too much into this because I have spent ages scratching my head on this already and it's driving me crackers.

Thanks again, and great blog, Beans.

The pheonix rises from the ashes - just give it time!

(two and a half years and counting - but who's counting!!)

http://s733.photobucket.com/albums/ww338/macmattom/

Jolyon39 · Postby **Jolyon39** » 22 Dec 2009 19:21

An admission of guilt

I have read this thread with interest and have to confess that TR7 water pump removal has been my greatest TR7 failure.

I am one of those guys who likes preventative maintenance, I even replace clutches before they need it, take parts off and have the brackets plated etc...

I decided to rekit the pump on my 7 about three years ago. I also decided to practice on a spare block. The cover was incredibly hard to get off, it took me days of sliding razzor knifes in and trying to cut gaskets etc....... Then I tried to remove the LH bolt, OMG it snapped and I was rotating it clockwise.

It is the one TR7 job I have walked away from (and could as it was only preventative maintenance). Truthfully, I am really really good with my hands and was still stunned at how difficult this job was.

Wise ones.... is this normal? How do you get that cover off without a sledge hammer, I am serious? and how do you loosen that nut??????

Lately I have purchased a new pump off ebay for about US$90.00 including postage to New Zealand so I am about to try again.

Perhaps someone had glued and locktighted everything to stop leaks on the pump I worked on??

Jolyon

macmattom · Postby **macmattom** » 22 Dec 2009 20:54

Hi Jolyon. In all honesty, I didn't! I have just taken off 4 covers in as many weeks, and each one seemed harder than the last! In all cases, I just used brute force and struck some very precisely weighted blows (read: good hard thwacks!) to the elbow of the water tube; hard enough to crack the seal, but not hard enough to break the housing cover.

There are two situations, depending on whether you have studs or bolts holding the cover down. It is slightly trickier with the studs, but the same method worked for both. The studs made it a bit harder becasue you can't twist the housing far, whereas if you have bolts, when these are fully removed you can twist the housing further.

By patiently tapping either side of the housing I "walked" the housing out of the block. Each one took no more than 5 minutes. In my experience, you have to be prepared to hit it hard, but they all came out soon enough, albeit destroying the gaskets on the way.

Another difficulty with the studs is trying to remove the housing from the uppermost stud - it will come off but be careful not to damage the housing against the underside of the head - again just careful manipulation and it should come out.

For me the hardest part was getting the pump out of the block itself, and you can probably see from this thread that I eventually got it out, but needed the correct tool.

As for the nut - all I can suggest is to hope yours will come out easier than the one in your spare block, but if not try penetrant oil and plenty of localised heat. You might try giving it a firm crack on top of the nut with a good sized hammer to maybe free up any corrosion inside first, but obviously taking care as you don't want to damage anything deeper in the engine.

Sorry I can't be any more use to you, as I've been reliant on other people's advice to get this far, but if you do get it out there are plenty of photos on my photobucket site of the pump in various stages of strip and rebuild that might help, although may I recommend Beans's blog - it's brilliant.

Good luck,

Mac

The pheonix rises from the ashes - just give it time!

(two and a half years and counting - but who's counting!!)

http://s733.photobucket.com/albums/ww338/macmattom/

Shauniedawn · Postby **Shauniedawn** » 22 Dec 2009 21:12

Hiya.

Re removal of the brass cage.

Either your trusty slide hammer, or:

Cheers,

Shaun.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12691409@N08/

Beans · Postby **Beans** » 22 Dec 2009 21:51

The oil seal itself sits below the holes in the brass cage.
So it seals to the brass cage itself, the inside seals against the shaft.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by macmattom

... although may I recommend Beans's blog - it's brilliant ...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I feel flattered [:I]

<center>

1980 TR7 DHC (my first car, currently being restored)
1981 TR7 FHC Sprint (better known as 't Kreng)
http://tr7beans.blogspot.com/</center>

Workshop Help · Postby **Workshop Help** » 22 Dec 2009 23:25

Our 1976 model water pump cover is different than the later 12 vane pumps. Removing the cover was quite simple. We inserted a round piece of steel rebar into the hole and jiggled it up and down until the cover came out. Clean living and pure thoughts resulted in the gasket staying intact on the cover and was reused with no leakage.

Mildred Hargis

Jolyon39 · Postby **Jolyon39** » 23 Dec 2009 03:36

Thanks for that folks,

I can only assume from your comments that the one I practiced on must have been glued in place. On that occaision I spent time every day for 5 days trying to get the cover off... with ever increasing violence. That one had bolts, no studs .

I will try another of my practice blocks.

Jolyon

macmattom · Postby **macmattom** » 30 Dec 2009 18:30

Despite promising to leave the brass cage inside the block, I thought it would be easier to rebuild the pump and get better seals if I removed the cage and rebuilt the pump out of the engine, so today I did just that.

I have 4 engines in total, and from these I got three 6-vane pumps and one 12-vane pump. Unfortnately the 12-vane pump never survived contact with the air

so is no longer in the running to go back in. The thing is that the 6-vane pump cages all had square holes around the body and the 12-vane pump cage had circular holes around the body, as can e seen in the picture below.

Now I have to refit a 6-vane impellor because that's all I have left, but I would like to use the cage with circular holes because that's in the best condition, but this came from the 12-vane pump

Can anyone tell me if the cages are interchangeable? Once I have this information I will have a big push and try to get the water pump rebuilt and refitted and inlet manifold rebuilt so I can then hopefully start the engine.

Thanks again for any help with this,

Mac.

The pheonix rises from the ashes - just give it time!

(two and a half years and counting - but who's counting!!)

http://s733.photobucket.com/albums/ww338/macmattom/

Beans · Postby **Beans** » 30 Dec 2009 19:06

All original water pumps (both 6 and 12 vane from TR7/Dolomite 1850/Sprint) I have seen had square holes in the brass cage.
I have had one after market replica and that came with round holes in the brass cage. And guess what, the impeller broke when I wanted to take it off to rebuild it last year.

In my case clearly caused by inferior casting [B)]

Also check if the pump shaft has Zephyr stamped on it. If so its a good one, some pump shafts have dodgy hardening.
Good to bear in mind when you are thinking of rebuilding or buying a new one. Rebuilding might well be best and cheapest

<center>

1980 TR7 DHC (my first car, currently being restored)
1981 TR7 FHC Sprint (better known as 't Kreng)
http://tr7beans.blogspot.com/</center>

macmattom · Postby **macmattom** » 01 Jan 2010 19:43

I have cleaned and rebuilt the water pump and refitted it to the brass cage. I then refitted the brass cage and pump to the block. Without refitting the impellor, I thought I'd check the water seal was seated so poured some water into the top of the water pump. It poured straight out of the slot [:(].

Does anybody know if the reason for this is that I need to fit the impellor to force the water seal to close (the water seal is spring loaded), or have I just made a hash of rebuilding and refitting the pump? I really do hope the first option is the case because I have now lost my sense of humour with this water pump and just want to get beyond it.

I am more annoyed because this job isn't too difficult if you have the tools and have done it once - my other 3 engines will benefit from my learning experience on this engine but it's this engine I've got fitted! I only hope somebody else might have read and followed this thread and gained enough knowledge and confidence to tackle this problem themselves - it really isn't that difficult and there has been some great help in this thread. Good luck if you do.

Thank you again - I really am indebted on this one. 

The pheonix rises from the ashes - just give it time!

(two and a half years and counting - but who's counting!!)

http://s733.photobucket.com/albums/ww338/macmattom/

Beans · Postby **Beans** » 01 Jan 2010 22:01

If you look at the way the waterseal works you should be able to see that you indeed do need the impeller to get it sealed ...
Make sure the seals mating surface on the underside of the impeller is smooth.

Marko put a very clear drawing somewhere on this forum with all the sealing points of the water pump.
I'd strongly recommend you do some reading (use the search function)before you go about working on the car [:D]

<center>

1980 TR7 DHC (my first car, currently being restored)
1981 TR7 FHC Sprint (better known as 't Kreng)
http://tr7beans.blogspot.com/</center>

Anonymous

Leaking water pump

Who is online