Like to get rid of air pump emission system

[InfilTR8]

In eliminating the air pump emission system, local regulations state that I can go to newer systems, but not older. So I think that the closed crankcase ventilation system would be allowed.

Has anyone done this, or other emission system? What needs to be done? Has someone written this up as a guide? Hope help is out there. [^]

Would I have to add EGR, exhaust gas recirculation?

Also the pump's removal would cut down on engine drag. Removing the pump and charcoal canister would give more space.

Ima TRyFixTR8 my first Triumph

[Odd]

Those two systems don't have anything to do to eachother - and definitely don't replace eachother,
they are intended to work together usually. If you'd want to replace the air injection system (and two-
way catalysts?) with something more modern (and better!) you'd have to go for fuel injection and
three-way catalysts. The EGR valve is one way of lowering the combustion temperature <u>in</u> the engine
(to lessen the NOx contents) while the air injection system is intended to 're-burn' residual CO and
CHx in the exhaust gas <u>after</u> the engine.

The drag is negligible compared to what your 8 cyl put out, btw.

[InfilTR8]

Thanks, Odd. Just more for me to learn. If I stay with carburetion, then am I stuck with the air pump? Perhaps a better question to ask you is, what options do I have if I do stay with carburetion?

Need to figure my options, but do want to stay with carbs due to initial cost of obtaining and refitting FI (either ECU with all sensors, or something simpler like early Bosch). Initially I need to keep the costs low at least until the whole thing runs. Then I will look at improvement costs.



Ima TRyFixTR8 my first Triumph

[Odd]

OK, first things first:
1/ is the air injection system giving you trouble, technically?
2/ is it legal in the place you live to tamper with the emission reducing parts the vehicle was originally type approved with?
2.5/ will it stay legal...
3/ will the car perform any better without the emission reducing parts the OEM factory fitted?

When you knowingly and truthfully can answer those questions with an unconditional YES - we'll start talking again.
Because just as you (I presume), I want the kids growing up to have as good as technically possible an atmosphere to breath.

<font color="red"><b>My two 1980 Wedges...</b></font id="red">

[InfilTR8]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Odd</i>

<font size="2">OK, first things first:
1/ is the air injection system giving you trouble, technically?
2/ is it legal in the place you live to tamper with the emission reducing parts the vehicle was originally type approved with?
2.5/ will it stay legal...
3/ will the car perform any better without the emission reducing parts the OEM factory fitted?

When you knowingly and truthfully can answer those questions with an unconditional YES - we'll start talking again.
Because just as you (I presume), I want the kids growing up to have as good as technically possible an atmosphere to breath.</font id="size2"><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
1) I honestly do not know. The TR8 has been sitting for more than 10 years. I recently acquired it. I know the previous owner and he told me that the car had been running up until storage. I can see that the engine may have been running but he started having hydraulic brake problems and clutch cylinder problems. Later he had gas tank pinholes. I spun the engine and it turns fine. The air pump system appears intact. I would be happy to gain space in the engine compartment by removing it.

2) It is legal for me to change to a newer system (it doesn't even matter if the newer system is worse or less effective). I do not want it to be any worse. I want clean air. I do not live in California.

2.5) It will remain legal with the same or newer system. So 1980 and newer.

3) I honestly do not know. I would like to have a more efficient emission system preferably with less bulk than presently, and simpler if possible. I am minimally okay with the modern EFI and the ECU involved, but that is not emission control by itself. If cost were no object, I would choose EFI.

Might be a mistake on my part to think that the positive crankcase ventilation system (like Chrysler) equates to the air pump system (like Ford and GM).

Thank you for your response. [:)]

Ima TRyFixTR8 my first Triumph

[Hasbeen]

Infil, have a look at the Removing Emission Equiptment thread in TR7.

Odd, I can't agree with your suggestion that the air pump, & EGR
valve are of any use to man or beast. In fact I can't agree with
you that any of this stuff is anything other than a sop to the
greenies, by the pollies.

I don't believe CO2 is a pollutant, or has any MEASURABLE effect on
temperature. But to humour those who have been conned, even if it
does, why a TR7 putting out less CO2 total than a large V8 sedan
should be condemned, I fail to see. If we don't work on CO2 per
mile, the whole thing is a crock of CR4P. So this % of CO2, is just
political garbage.

My Toyota has a much lower exhaust gas reading, than my 7. This must
make the Toyota better, right? But wait a minute, the Toyota uses
12.5 L/100Km. of fuel, driving down the road. Would someone please
explain how this is better than my 7, which uses less than
9L/100Km, to do the same thing, with less total emissions.

Because of this corrupt system, Triumph indulged in an equally
corrupt system. They installed an air pump, & an EGR valve, not
because they could do any environmental service, but because it
pretended to do so.

The air pump introduced a large increase in the total gas emitted
from the tail pipe. This did nothing to change the volume of CO, &
CO2 combined, comming out, but it did REDUCE THE PERCENTAGE of the
stuff, when measured. In fact it must increase the total emissions
by the amount of power used to drive the thing.

It is a totally cynical exercise, in response to the pollies totally
cynical law, regarding emissions.

There have been some very good environmental laws, but most of the
usefull things, fesible with current technology, have been
implemented. Most of the stuff today, is just to keep the greenies
voting, & the public servants, in environmental departments, in
jobs. All critical to pollies, but meaningless in effect on our
planet.

Rant over.

Hasbeen

[FI Spyder]

Hasbeen, you make too much sense for any greenie or pollie to listen to you. However I had the same thought as Odd. The air pump turns over quite readily and can't take that much juice relative to the total out put of the engine. The same for the viscous fan doesn't take that much juice to turn. I can turn these over with my little finger so the amount they are robbing from the engine is not much. Unlike the A/C compressor that actually takes some juice to compress the gaseous freon (or what ever) and turn it back into a liquid. That can be felt in the drivers seat. The other two is just discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

TR7 Spider - 1978 Spifire - 1976 Spitfire - 1988 Tercel 4X4 - Kali on Integra - 1991 Integra

[Hasbeen]

Yes Spyder, I doubt the thing takes too much power, or produces too
much pollution, although I have read figures like 2 BHP, when
pumping a lot of air, at higher revs. It does seem silly, when we
know that reduced backpressure will improve power, & reduce fuel
consumption, that we should be wasting any power, increasing that
back pressure, just to please greenies.

I just hate unnecessary garbage on my cars, particularly when I am
having my intelligence insulted by the mere fact the thing is there.

Unfortunately, with our current bunch of pollies in Oz, if this is
the worst insult to my intelligence in the next 12 months, I will
be very lucky.

Hasbeen

[Workshop Help]

Here we go. It's not so much that the power drag is alot but rather that our low power engines from an older technological era can ill afford any power drag. There in lies the owners benefit in selective removal of some of the emission equipment. Were one a hardcore, the stock fan and all that heavy pulley assembly would be sliced off as well, with an electric fan substituted. Then a general overall lightening of car could ensue. After all, why have two seats when one person uses the car and an old milk stool can be bolted down.

As you can see, I have slipped from the sublime to the ridiculous.

It may be best to remind ourselves each of us is subject only to our own consciences when it comes to our Mighty Triumphs.

Mildred Hargis

[Hasbeen]

Not too ridiculous Mildred.

In this state, of Oz, where checks for the roadworthiness of cars is
only required at change of ownership, we get some horror stories,
regarding what's on our roads.

Recently the cops stopped a Ford Falcon, with a 1 ft, by 1.5 ft hole
in the drivers floor. There was a sheet of plywood over the hole,
with a 12 gallon drum bolted to it, to make a seat. A nice
varnished milk stool would have been much better.

Remindes me of my first car, a 1934 Morris 8/40. It had a hole in
the floor, similar to our round cover hole, but without the cover.
It had a large piece of ply, filling the footwell, with a rubber
mat over it.

This was great, as I was doing a lot of surfing then. On sunday
afternoon, I could take the ply & mat out, & sweep the sand out the
hole, easy.

Hasbeen

[Odd]

Hasbeen,
you forgot the main reason for the air injection system (apart from diluting down the percentages of various gas components):
The extra oxygen pumped into the hot exhaust manifold gasses 're-burned' the carbonmonoxide CO molecules into
harmless carbondioxide CO2 molecules. <u>Some</u> of the left-over hydrocarbons are also treated, re-forming into H2O and CO2...
All of it good for the air we breathe...

This is all the same process as what's done in a two-way catalyst, but there it is done more efficiently. In a three-way catalyst
the NOx component of the exhaust gasses are reduced to Nitrogen and free Oxygen molecules - that are used further back
in the catalyst block.

The best way, by far, for InfilTR8 to go would be to fit an efi system complete with Lambda sensors and three-way catcons.
Quite cheap and easy to implement would be a MegaSquirt system on a (second hand) LandRover efi inlet manifold. This is
probably among the cheapest ways to go 'modern' and 'fuel efficient'. It would, when finally dialed in, give him both the
uncluttered engine bay he longs for, higher power figures (if he fits the 9.75:1 or 10.5:1 pistons) and better fuel efficiency
+ reduced emissions at the tailpipe. All in one big blow... I'm myself in the same situation when it comes to my dads TR7V8
- what should I do to get (far!) away from that jurassic Holley and its T-Ford technology?
[:)] JMHO YMMV /Odd

If anyone wants to read more on catcons etc, here's <u>some</u> material:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalyst
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter

<font color="red"><b>My two 1980 Wedges...</b></font id="red">

[Hasbeen]

Odd,that CO will absorb another O, & become CO2 almost as soon as it
leves the tail pipe, without any requirement of power consumed to
supply the O in the exhaust system. The atmosphere will not know
the difference.

If you are really worried about your air, you should ban all things
that burn high quantities of fuel. This has a little to do with
fuel injection, & a lot to do with power output.

My 7 has never burnt more than 10.5L/100Km, no matter how hard I
thash it, & it's SUs. My 4.6L 8, with a high-tec [Haltec] computer
controlling it's injection has rarely managed 10.5L/100Km, with
12.5 being usual, if gently driven, & 25L/100Km is not too unusual,
when thrashed.

Mate, I know what the spin was, re the air pump, & I believe it,
just as much as I believe that CO2 is going to overheat the
plannet, or the Y2K bug is still out to get my computer. By all
means fit a cat if you want to be a good citizen, but the air pump
is one of the most cynical con jobs, ever. Perpetuated by a bunch
of engineers, who could not get their engine to burn cleanly enough
for the US market.

Hasneen

[Odd]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">My 7 has never burnt more than 10.5L/100Km, no matter how hard I thash it, & it's SUs.
My 4.6L 8, with a high-tec [Haltec] computer controlling it's injection has rarely managed 10.5L/100Km,
with 12.5 being usual, if gently driven, & 25L/100Km is not too unusual, when thrashed. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Ouch! As I wrote a few days ago:
" Summing the season up, I find we did: 8901 km (5469 miles) between April 29th and November 3rd.
We guzzled 830 litres (182.6 UKgal or 219.3 USgal) of 95RON unleaded E05 " Sooo, I'm quite pleased with
the fuel consumption of my Disco 3.9 litre efi Rover V8 engined TR8, this years average ended up at
9.33 L/100km (30.29 mpUKg 25.22 mpUSg). And the best tankfill this summer was:
7.96 L/100km (35.50 mpUKg 29.56 mpUSg)
and I had a 'worst case' one weekend when towing an 750kg trailer 1900 km (1181 miles) around
a fairly good part of south-western Sweden:
10.34 L/100km (27.31 mpUKg 22.74 mpUSg)

All of this in a 30 year old sportscar. Life could be worse...
I'm positive efi and lambdas+catcons is the way to go.

<font color="red"><b>My two 1980 Wedges...</b></font id="red">

[Workshop Help]

Here I go into my Sierra Club nag-a-thon.

Now, children! To save our endangered green and blue orb, we must all ride bicycles or walk, eat only pesticide free organic fruits & vegetables, do not drink water from plastic bottles, abandon the use of and recycle all motorized vehicles except natural gas powered buses, and insert corks in our orfices to prevent the release of methane that damages the ozone layer.

Full compliance will begin as we join hands to meditate together.

Now, doesn't that make things all better? Who wants a soy cookie? Raise your hands!

Mildred Hargis

[InfilTR8]

How is this for a near-term plan? Keep the air pump (little drag) system and cats for a while until the 4 bbl carb works well. Then remove the air pump system and replace it with new cats, exhaust maybe, headers maybe, and see if I will be happy with that.

Do those metal tubing inlets go into the exhaust manifold to feed the air sent by the pump? Plugging would be by bolt in the hole then? Since it is in cast iron, should I stay with steel, or go with S/S or brass?

Ima TRyFixTR8 my first Triumph