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Rear Brake Slaves

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Underdog
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Postby Underdog » 06 Mar 2009 17:57

So I checked and MGB roadster bore is .800 while the GTs are .875. What I'd really like to know and end the confusion once & for all is what are the bore sizes for a TR7 5spd and TR7 4 spd?? I've looked at catalogs and the shop manual to no avail. I have to go to NAPA to pick up my pinion brgs so maybe I'll see if thier books shead any light.

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PeterTR7V8
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Postby PeterTR7V8 » 06 Mar 2009 19:00

That is a good rundown of the facts Cobber now what does it mean in application? If a larger bore on the slave wil apply more force on the rear brakes but require more pedal travel wouldn't the PV rob the rear brake of even more fluid? Was the PV the same for the 7 & 8? As I've said I have a manually adjusted Willwood PV so the last question is academic but even without a PV does the extra pedal travel mean that more pressure is being sent to the front when the rear slave size is increased creating further imbalance?

Theoretically the TR8 front should be lighter with the aluminium motor.

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FI Spyder
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Postby FI Spyder » 06 Mar 2009 20:54

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by PeterTR7V8</i>



Theoretically the TR8 front should be lighter with the aluminium motor.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The TR8 is about 250 lbs heavier, a little from bigger dics, some is power steering and the rest is pretty much engine.


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Postby REPLIC8 » 06 Mar 2009 21:28

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">As an aside, are TR8 wheel cylinders different to TR7 4 and 5 speed ones?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
4 speed cylinders are the same as TR8 5 speed cylinders, the only difference is the backplate on a TR8 has the hole for the locating pin on the opposite side to a TR7 5 speed backplate to accept the 4 speed cylinder.[:)]

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Postby Underdog » 06 Mar 2009 22:54

Peter, If I understand your question, no. MGB use different size rear cyls on the roadster & GT...as I have stated. They both use the same master & frt brakes.
I did get info from the NAPA catalog. TR7 4spd is 3/4" bore, 5spd 11/16"

FWIW, here's a photo of an original TR8 backing plate. Just happen to have the rear sitting on work horses right now. Two sets of the mentioned holes evident and I didn't drill any of them.

Image

This always gets confused because of volume & speed. Forget about that. The amount of force applied is determined by the size of the respective bores. Just look at the size of a caliper piston in relation to a wheel cyl. And the performance calipers add more pistons to get even more force. Now just to complicate further, drum brakes are self energizing due to rotational friction of the shoes on the drums, hence less hydraulic force is required than a disc brake. But the frts always do more work than the rears.

Well, we are on page two. I'm sure we'll catch up to the MG guys soon.[:D]

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Postby Underdog » 06 Mar 2009 23:00

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by FI Spyder</i>

[quote]<i>Originally posted by PeterTR7V8</i>



Theoretically the TR8 front should be lighter with the aluminium motor.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The TR8 is about 250 lbs heavier, a little from bigger dics, some is power steering and the rest is pretty much engine.

You forgot air conditioning which was pretty much standard. Plus they were mostly all DHCs that got the bumper weights. Add on the cast iron manifolds and cat converters and you had one nose heavy beast. The engine is actually relativly light. Don't know how it compares to a TR7 4cyl but my buddy has a MGB conversion and the car sits higher in the frt than it did with the iron 4 banger.


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<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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Postby Wayne S » 06 Mar 2009 23:02

Thanks Andy,

I suspected as much. Grinnall uprated my SD1 rear drums by using the "TR8" wheel cylinders as they call them in the papers I have with the car, of course with the pins swapped the other way they would fit an SD1 axle backplate with no mods.

To end the argument regarding smaller brake cylinders you only have to apply some simple engineering maths:

The forumla for fluid pressure in PSI is found by:

Fluid Pressure - P (PSI) = Force (Pounds) / Area ( Sq. In.)

So you can see the smaller the area within the bore, the higher the pressure. You can turn this into braking effort by taking that answer and using it in this formula for cylinder force:

Cylinder Force - F (Pounds) = Pressure (psi) × Area (sq. in.)

So you can see that the higher the pressure, the higher the braking force. Braking force is also increased by applying that pressure over a larger area i.e bigger brake shoes.

This explains Grinnalls modification on my car. He has used SMALLER wheel cylinders (4 speed cylinders) to increase braking pressure but larger drums and shoes (from a Rover SD1) to increase braking area.

Hope that helps [:D]

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Postby Underdog » 07 Mar 2009 00:00

First formula applies to the master cyl that develops the pressure. Second one is for the slave that turns the pressure into force. Little confusing without that distiction.

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Postby PeterTR7V8 » 07 Mar 2009 02:19

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Underdog</i>

First formula applies to the master cyl that develops the pressure. Second one is for the slave that turns the pressure into force. Little confusing without that distiction.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That is a good point. The pressure is generated by the master cylinder & then applied by the slave. I assume that you can theoretically over gear the slave & have a situation where the piston won't travel far enough but before you get to that point the slave cylinder force on the brake shoes increases.

Bigger shoes & drums I can understand easier.

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Postby Cobber » 07 Mar 2009 04:08

<font face="Comic Sans MS"><font size="2">If you have a small dia master cyl and increase the size dia of the slave cyl you run the risk of the master cyl running out of stroke before the slave cyl does any useful work.

To help explain the effect of slave cyl dia, I've included a pic of some of my hydraulic porto-power rams. Think of the pump as the master cyl and the rams as slave cyls. ( Now to Peter & all the other Kiwis don't go getting exited with all this talk of masters,slaves & rams! we're not talking about sheep!)
The small unit to the left is rated to 5Ton it moves @ 8.5mm for every stroke of the pump (The blue thing in the background), in the middle is a ram rated at 30Ton it moves @ 2mm for every stroke of the pump and the on the right is rated at 100Ton it only moves about 0.5mm per stoke of the pump. One pump stroke is @ 30mm. Now I don't know the dia of all these cyls because I can't be arsed looking them up, so don't ask! All measurements are approx because yet again I couldn't be arsed doing them properly.
Image</font id="size2"></font id="Comic Sans MS">


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Postby Cobber » 07 Mar 2009 04:44

<font size="2"><font face="Comic Sans MS">Peter What you need to ask yourself is:
What am I hoping to achieve with this modification?

Do you have excessive pedal travel? Then the smaller cyl may help.

Are the rears locking up prematurely? Although you have an adjustable PV That should eliminate this you still maybe better off with the smaller dia cyl as it would give you more feel

Are you getting enough feel through the pedal? Then the smaller dia cyl could help.

Is there too much effort in pushing the pedal? Then the smaller cyl would make it worse.
And the most important question: is any gain made going to worth the effort? </font id="Comic Sans MS"></font id="size2">


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PeterTR7V8
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Postby PeterTR7V8 » 07 Mar 2009 05:24

I got excited anyway.

I want more brakes at the rear because the fronts lock up & the rears don't feel like they even come close. I've been in full panic braking on a loose surface & I know the rears were still turning. I know I don't want the rears to lock up but I want to dial that out with the willwood valve & find a better balance than I have now.

When the brakes are bled I don't have a problem with pedal travel & the pedal doesn't require great effort.

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Postby Underdog » 07 Mar 2009 12:16

Peter, I understand completely what you are trying to accomplish. This isn't the first time I've heard complaints of the lack of rear bias with these cars. TSI has the modified PV. Ted used to race these back in the day and that's his approach but you have that area covered. As I mentioned, another fella on Woodys site races SCCA ITS with a TR8. He also said the rear brakes are weak and says it's because the cylinders are too small. His class rules prohibit modifying but he mentioned the MGB option. Now assuming your car started life as a TR7 5spd, you should currently have 11/16 cylinders fitted. Standard MGB are .800 or 13/16 which would be an increase of 1/8" The GTs are .875 or 7/8 which would gain 3/16. If I were you, I'd get a set of the standard ones and give a try. If you still feel you need more then the GT would be an option. They only cost about 20 bucks a piece so not much lost if it doesn't work out. I have yet to install my bias valve. When I do, if I feel it still needs more rear bias, this will be my approach. I really think this is something that will take some experimentation on your part.

BTW, Jeff, the race fella, also mentioned Carbotech shoes help but I haven't found out where to get them yet.

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Postby Odd » 07 Mar 2009 14:43

Let's see, here's the various dimensions mentioned, in a more graspable unit:

TR8 + TR7 4-sp: 11/16" = 17.4625 mm = 239.4985 mm2 = 100% piston area
TR7 5-sp: 3/4" = 19.050 mm = 285.0230 mm2 = 119%
MGB: .800" = 20.320 mm = 324.2928 mm2 = 135%
(or 13/16"? which is 20.6375 mm = 334.5061 mm2 = 140% )
MGB GT: .875 or 7/8" = 22.225 mm = 387.9479 mm2 = 162%

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Postby Underdog » 07 Mar 2009 14:49

Good comparison. % figures much easier to compare. Only thing is the 4spd is 3/4 and 5spd 11/16...at least according to NAPA.

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