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clutchie things

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laskaboots
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clutchie things

Postby laskaboots » 15 Nov 2009 02:25

I rebuilt my clutch hydraulics a few months ago with new seal kits and a new hose from victoria brit. Honed the bores and they looked really shiny with no pits or corrosion. Pressure bled the system, but when done, the clutch pedal goes right to the floor with little resistence, and pressure plate doesn't move. Took everything apart and all looked good. Reinstalled, bled, and same thing. Thought maybe problem was in release bearing, so I removed slave cylinder from bell housing, and bolted a plate across the end just to test the hydraulic part, and to prevent the slave piston from being blown out the end. same result, pedal has almost no resistence. must be a bad seal, I thought, but there is no leakage, no loss of fluid, no swirling of fluid back into resevoir. I'm stumped. Fluid HAS to go somewhere. If the bore in either the master or slave was not tight, the fluid would bypass the seal and leak out. If the pipe was ruptured or loose, fluid would leak out.
Today I tried to replace the master with one from a spitfire, but it has a 3/16 pipe fitting, not 12mm, and I couldn't find any adapter or fitting to join it to the existing pipe. I'm in the process of manufacturing an adapter, just so I can put a known good master cylinder in the system to see what happens. Anybody ever had a similar problem? Would a HUGE air gap in the pipe have the same symptoms?

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Postby Workshop Help » 15 Nov 2009 03:06

Yes.

Are you using a lovely assistant to pump the clutch pedal three times then hold it to the floor? At that point, with a vinyl tube attached to the bleed nipple and the other end in the bottom of an old Coke bottle, you very briefly open, then close the bleed screw to release the pressurized air/fluid froth. Then have the lovely assistant repeat the process. When the froth turns into clear fluid, you will hear the clutch mechanism moving inside the bellhousing. Be sure to maintain the fluid level in the master cylinder while the lovely assistant rests his/her left leg by releasing the clutch pedal.

Is this the procedure you are using to bleed the system? If not, do it. Fancy little contraptions don't always work.

Mildred Hargis

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Postby Beans » 15 Nov 2009 10:19

Agree with Mildred ...
... and bear in mind that the standard TR7 clutch mechanism can be a real pain to bleed, mainly caused by the larger inner diameter of the hose in combination with the pretty large height difference. After bleeding the clutch leave it for an hour or so, and check again. Fair chance you’ll have to bleed again.

As you can read [url="http://www.tr7beans.blogspot.com/2008/09/bleedin-clutch.html"]<u><b><font size="2"><font color="red">HERE</font id="red"></font id="size2"></b></u>[/url] I have had the same problem in the passed [B)]

Also check the clutch hose itself, they can deteriorate with age, causing the same symptoms as trapped air. And some aftermarket hoses are pretty bad too, causing the same symptoms. Fairly easy to check with the lovely assistance, just hold th ehose in your hand and feel if it expands when the clutch pedal is pressed down.


<center>Image
<font color="blue"><i>1981 TR7 FHC Sprint (better known as 't Kreng)
1980 TR7 DHC (my first car currently being restored)
In parts a 1980 TR7 PI DHC, 1981 TR7 DHC, 1981 TR7 FHC</font id="blue">
<font color="red">http://tr7beans.blogspot.com/</i></font id="red"></center>

laskaboots
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Postby laskaboots » 15 Nov 2009 13:58

thanks for the replys. The first time I bled the system I used a pressure bleeding system that attatches to a spare tire, and uses a cup of fluid so the master resevoir doesn't go empty. About 10 psi.
I've used this before on spitfires with good success because it flows so fast that air usually doesn't get trapped in high spots.
This was the same, fluid came out fast, and soon had no bubbles. Pedal still had little resistance, and clutch mechanism would not move. Then used the lovely assistant method, and fluid dribbled rather than squirted when she stepped it down. I think that points to a bad master, but no leakage apparent any where. When I can get the known good master from the Spitfire connected, and if it STILL doesn't work I will know that it is a bleeding problem. Hopefully this afternoon. We are here in Wisconsin, and I would rather do the clutch then suffer the pain of watching the GB Packers, if you know what I mean.

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Postby bmcecosse » 15 Nov 2009 17:00

To check the master - simply fit a bleed nipple in the output instead of the delivery hose - and check if it generates any pressure. Sure the actuating lever inside the bell housing hasn't fallen out ? I understand that happens v easily if you disturb the slave......

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FI Spyder
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Postby FI Spyder » 15 Nov 2009 18:27

I had the same problem. It was the new clutch hose that was expanding like a balloon. Made me miss the fist car show of the season. Have some one press on the brake pedal while you hold onto the hose and you will feel it expand in your hand. The hoses from VB are too soft. I replaced it with the old hose and everything worked fine. I drove it for the rest of the season and over the next winter I replaced it with a braided hose.


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laskaboots
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Postby laskaboots » 16 Nov 2009 02:30

ok, I got the pipe adapter made and installed. Then I pressure bled the system. Passed 2 pints of fluid through it, getting a large amount of air before a good amount of only fluid the last pint or so. Problem remained, although the pedal did seem to have a little more resistance. I had lovely assistant pump the pedal while I was under the car to see if I could hear the mechanism move at all. Nothing again, but I could feel the pulses expanding the tube
with each step. I removed the slave and clamped a vise grip on the actuator rod and tried to push it in manually. Firm enough that I couldnt move it in any, but it would pull out about an inch or so, so I think it is still connected. As winter is aproaching I may need to store the car and wait until spring until I get a chance to
try again. Then I will use a solid steel tube and try to come up with a mechanical way of pushing in the actuating rod to see if that part is alright. Never expected it would be this difficult. Thanks to all for the help.

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Postby Ianftr8 » 16 Nov 2009 11:39

Here's something simple.

I had experience in the past of problems trying to bleed my clutch. One very silly thing I did (and took hours to work out what I did wrong) was to get the bleed nipple and the inlet pipe the wrong way round on the slave cylinder - could not get it to bleed out for love nor money.

The other thing you can try is to bench bleed the system - remove the master and slave cylinder along with the connecting pipe as one unit hang the master cylinder in the vice and pump out the air by hand - obviously you have to be very carefull not to blow out the seals and piston on the slave cylinder.

Just my pennies worth.

Cheers
Ian

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1979 TR8 DHC California car that never crossed the pond, started life as KDU 315V.
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Postby Workshop Help » 16 Nov 2009 12:47

This whole thing is starting to get silly.

On the slave cylinder, is the bleed screw on top? It needs to be.

Is your old clutch hose still intact? If so, use it.

Are you sure the piston is moving in the slave cylinder and not binding? Please verify.

The parts sold these days by the usual suspects are not what they were 25 years ago. With so much of it being made in places I would not want to go much less even hear about, our cars are being made reliant on their questionable products. Do you need to be reminded of the current Chinese Drywall debacle, lead on kids toys, defective mystery metal in most any product? I suggest the outsourcing of manufactured products is an economic cancer that will sooner or later be the killer our western societies. If You or I or our cousin can't work in a plant making quality gizmos, how will I, you, or he be able to buy one made in the ****stan, or India, or Bangladesh no matter how cheap in price it is?

That said, if your old hose is bad, order or have one made locally in braided stainless steel. I also suggest you send off your old slave cylinder to have a brass liner installed as this will prolong it's life almost infinitly. As for the master cylinder, it can be substiuted with a better one from a mid 1980's Isuzu pickup truck. I believe JCLAY's website still has a feature on this conversion. It works quite well. As for the fluid, use only a DOT 4 brake fluid. Avoid the DOT 5 as it is reputed to have compressibility issues.

Mildred Hargis

FI Spyder
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Postby FI Spyder » 16 Nov 2009 20:22

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by laskaboots</i>

Nothing again, but I could feel the pulses expanding the tube
with each step.... Never expected it would be this difficult.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Not difficult, just maddening at not getting a new part that should work. Excellent example of if there are two parts, cheap repro or more expensive OEM, get the more expensive part. It's not that China or (insert your favourite country of choice here) can't make quality parts, it's just if they go for cheapest of everything to get the cheapest product on the market it very likely is going to be inferior to the point of not working.

As for DOT 5 it's compressability is molecular and minimal. I've talked to a number of TR people who have used it with no problems. However any air bubbles in the system tend not to combine (unlike conventional fluid) so are more difficult to blead. With our reported bleed problems with especially rear brakes, I opted for conventional fluid and had no problems bleeding. I now wonder if I could have gone DOT 5. I don't mind bleeding every couple of years so not a big deal unlike some who don't like messing with their cars.

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laskaboots
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Postby laskaboots » 18 Nov 2009 01:26

in answer to the many suggestions, yes the bleed nipple is above (higher) than the inlet, the plastic tube is from British Victoria (I have no idea of country of origin), I don't know if slave cylinder piston is moving because it is installed in the bellhousing.
Where is a source of a ready made steel braided tube? I checked Rimmer Bros and their listings were "TR7 RHD" "TR7 LHD" and "TR8 Braided". My next step will be to bench test, but it would be nice to have the flexible braided tubing rather than (semi)rigid steel, so I could reinstall in the car without disassembling. Mildred, I agree this is getting silly. The most frustrating problems do seem silly when something simple just WILL NOT WORK when we expect it to. I also agree that quality parts and materials are getting more difficult to find, and only add another bit of difficulty to a straightforward procedure. However, I still would rather deal with these things than buy a Honda, or , heaven forbid, a Prius.

FI Spyder
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Postby FI Spyder » 18 Nov 2009 19:12

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by laskaboots</i>


Where is a source of a ready made steel braided tube? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I believe I got mine from S&S Prep or Robsport.


TR7 Spider - 1978 Spifire - 1976 Spitfire - 1988 Tercel 4X4 - Kali on Integra - 1991 Integra
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