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Oil additives

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TR7Aaron
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Oil additives

Postby TR7Aaron » 14 Sep 2009 23:36

I've used a few different oil additives in the past (mostly STP) and I just read the article in this link:

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/snakeoil.htm

...I found it very interesting and thought I'd share it.

Aaron
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Hasbeen
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Postby Hasbeen » 16 Sep 2009 12:17

Yes Aaron, It's what I'd expect from the Oil companies, & the car
manufacturers.

When I was racing, I had both BP, & Shell contracts, at various
times. Although not officially, their racing managere knew I was
using STP, & suggested I should stop. When I agreed, provided they
would repair anything which then broke, due to poor lubrication,
both declined the offer. They hated it, but would not back their oil
against it.

Although I believe the standard oils are now 200% better than
anything we had back then, I never run an engine, or a diff without
STP, & never will.

Please note, never put it in a synchromesh gearbox, particularly a
Moss box, used in Jags, [& Morgan +4s] in the 60s. I did, & it
reduced the friction required to make the synchros work to nothing,
& totally eliminated the syncros.

My experience with STP is as follows.

STP came to Oz, & wanted to promote their stuff with racing success,
as they did in the US. They came to us, & explained that STP was
simply ironised oil. Oil was bombarded with a gamma ray, which broke
the oil molecule into 4, [smaller ball bearings], & left it with a
negative charge, making it surface seeking, [sticky]. Just try to
wash it off your hands.

Their only claim was it produced a stronger boundary layer, which
did not drain out, & was much harder to squeeze out. It sounded
good, particularly for my problem.

In 1964 they offered technical support, & large bonuses to anyone
who would use it with SAE10 oil in their cars in the
Bathurst 500 [miles]. I was driving with a mate, in his car, & he
used it. I was impressed.

I was racing my Morgan +4 [Triumph TR3A engine] & had a major
bearing problem, at the time, as did anyone racing that hefty 4 pot
engine.

Using BP corse, racing oil, the big end slipper in the conrod cap
would be down to copper after just one race meeting, [say 50 miles].

Adding molly slip to the oil extended that to somewhere between 75 &
100 miles. Stopping that big heavy at piston at top dead centre, on
the exhaust stroke was blamed. The boundry film of oil was breaking
down.

STP wanted me to try their stuff, & when they offered to replace the
engine, if it blew up, in the first race, I had nothing to loose.

After that first race the thing stripped perfectly. I did 2, then 3,
then 4 races on the same bearings, & still no copper showing on
those bearing. I never did find out how far it would go, as I then
sold the car.

Those old TR engines with their very big oil ways, rattle like early
diesels, when started, due to the oil draining out. With STP that is
a thing of the past. They don't rattle, even after a month or more.

You can't wash it off. I always ran it in the dog [non synchromeah]
boxes in racing cars.
I had 3 Hweland crown wheel & pinion sets, from my Lotus gear box
crack tested, & found the lowest ratio had a cracked tooth in the
pinion, & 2 in the crown wheel. I had to use it in a race, while I
was waiting for a new set.

When the new ones turned up, I pulled it out of the box, & threw it
out the back door of the workshop, into the long grass by a drain.
6 months later a mate was desperate for that ratio for his Lotus for
a race. It took him half an hour to find then, in the overgrown
mess. When he did, they were as bright, & shiny as when I'd thrown them out, STP protected, from the box.

To fit the piston pin in a Hillman Imp piston, you had to heat the
piston, & chill the pin, & then they often got stuck half way in.
With a little STP, mixed in a little oil, smeared on both, you can
push it in with your hand.

I have a 50 year old Fordson Diesel tractor, which for the last 15
years is only used a couple of times a year. Without STP in it,
I'm sure the bores would have long ago, rusted to death. As it is,
it starts up no trouble, & has excelent compression.

Have you guessed yet, I like the stuff, with good reason, I believe.
Try it, if you have a problem.

Hasbeen

TR7Aaron
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Postby TR7Aaron » 16 Sep 2009 13:14

I've used STP and continue to do so, mostly in high mileage engines that have poor oil pressure. It touts itself as a 'viscosity improver' and that's what it does well. Using a can in a V8 will usually raise the oil pressure about 10 - 20 PSI and I feel more secure seeing better number on the gauge.
I posted the link because of all the 'miracles in a can' that are on the market. Most are junk, I think you'll agree.

Aaron
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Hasbeen
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Postby Hasbeen » 16 Sep 2009 14:16

One thing I have noticed with STP, is that it tends to decoke the
engines it is introduced to.

In old coked up engines, this in it self, can cause problems.

I had one engine where large chunks of flakes of carbon started
comming out the exhaust.

However, one thick chunk got caught by an exhaust valve, & hammered
into the seat. The wedge of carbom held the valve slightly open,
which resulted in the valve being burned.

It was remarkable how little carbon was left in the head, or no the
pistons, in an old engine, when I pulled the head off.

Hasbeen

FI Spyder
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Postby FI Spyder » 16 Sep 2009 18:06

I have never used oil additives but on my '71 Javelin 304 c.i. that I had bought new I changed oil and filter every three months (what ever brand name was on sale at the time). 18 years later I had 180,000 miles on it and it still didn't burn any oil. I sold the car at that point so don't know how it faired after that.



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Last TR
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Postby Last TR » 18 Sep 2009 20:23

Aaron's article refers to the zinc additives as well. I've been following the zinc argument for several years now; I don't know if the zinc content has been further reduced since this article was written some years back. My favorite mechanic swears by Cam Shield, and says he has seen recently overhauled vintage engines suffer cam and lifter damage from low zinc modern oils. Consequently, I have started using zinc in both of my Triumphs and my MG. Anybody have any further thoughts or experiences with zinc additives?

Ken
Anchorage, Alaska
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FI Spyder
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Postby FI Spyder » 18 Sep 2009 20:47

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Last TR</i>

Anybody have any further thoughts or experiences with zinc additives?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The zinc is for older engines that use lifters and pushrods. Modern engines like our over head cam engine doesn't need the zinc content that these engines need. If I remember right they lowered the zinc content to extend the life of the cat converter. Not many pushrod engines with cat's and for those few that do there are some oils with enough zinc content.


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Hasbeen
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Postby Hasbeen » 19 Sep 2009 00:50

Can't agree with that Spyder.

I was racing in the 60s so the oils probably had more zink than now.
With both BP & Shell, when they gave you a tin of oil, they gave you
a GLASS jar of grey oily liquid of about 80 gear oil viscosity. I
was told this was extra zink.

When I asked the shell people why it wasn't in the oil, I just got
evasion. I decided the bloke didn't know.

This was to be added to a warm engine, not with the oil, when cold.

This was when I was racing twin cam Cosworth Fords, & the Repco F1
over head cam engine. They did not give it to me, when I was racing
my Morgan +4, [Triumph TR3A engine]. May be the production sports
car boys didn't rate the best stuff, or perhaps it was not available
at that time, but they wanted extra zink in top racing OHC engines,
back then.

Perhaps of interest, BP corse 50, [or course, I can't remember],
their top racing oil at the time, had that same sticky, hard to wash
off feel that ordinary oil, with STP added had.

I had noticed that both oil companies became rather distant, when
you asked too many questions about the details of their oil. I could
not tell if this was because the racing team blokes didn't know, &
didn't want to admit it, or they didn't want to tell us, or the
public too much about their oils.

Also of interest, the blokes racing Morgan +4s, & Triumph TR3s in
historic racing, even with stock conrods, but perhaps lighter
pistons, do not have the same problem with big end bearing slippers,
that we had back then. I believe this is all due to improvements in
oils.

Hasbeen

zekow1
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Postby zekow1 » 19 Sep 2009 15:11

i read most of the article and ofcourse everything that Hasbeen has to say.
i come out with this conclution:
Use Additives on your engine oil not on your transmission?
But us,
plain mortals
want to know
which additive???
Brand /type / how much etc. .
its not just because we are lazy ,Noooooooo.
but with all the other things we are doing while building the suckers
Some desitions are better left to those
that have been there ,done that.
hey what would we do with out you guys.


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Odd
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Postby Odd » 19 Sep 2009 16:47

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by FI Spyder</i>
The zinc is for older engines that use lifters and pushrods. Modern engines like our over head cam engine doesn't need the zinc content that these engines need. If I remember right they lowered the zinc content to extend the life of the cat converter. Not many pushrod engines with cat's and for those few that do there are some oils with enough zinc content. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Easy now here - remember lots of us here on the forum have that very pinnacle of Triumphs [the TR8] or at least almost one...
And all of our cars suffer from the changed oil additive packages in modern oils!
So bevare if you belive what you stated above goes for all the members cars here. It might be true for that strange
four banger (but I highly doubt it since there are no roller lifters in it either) but certainly not for the true Wedge engine.

FI Spyder
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Postby FI Spyder » 19 Sep 2009 17:56

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Odd</i>
[brEasy now here - remember lots of us here on the forum have that very pinnacle of Triumphs [the TR8] or at least almost one...
And all of our cars suffer from the changed oil additive packages in modern oils!
So bevare if you belive what you stated above goes for all the members cars here. It might be true for that strange
four banger (but I highly doubt it since there are no roller lifters in it either) but certainly not for the true Wedge engine.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Sorry...I keep forgetting that the V-8 is old technology.[:D]

For those interested, if you do a search on the forum you will find which oils still have zinc in them in enough quantity to be safe (or links to articles) as this has been discussed before. I believe Castrol GTX is one of the good ones and one of the few oils commonly available in this neck of the woods in the 20W50 weight we need.


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Last TR
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Postby Last TR » 22 Sep 2009 20:23

Now I'm wondering about the straight six in my 2000 Jeep as well. It's just an old pushrod engine like the Rover V8 in my Wedge. It has a catalytic converter, though, so the zinc additives would be damaging to that. There are still a number of pushrod engines on the market; they must be doing something different to get by without the zinc.

Ken
Anchorage, Alaska
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1980 TR8, 1973 TR6, 1965 Volvo PV544, 1958 MGA, Jeep Cherokees

Underdog
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Postby Underdog » 22 Sep 2009 21:37

Ahh, the great ZDDP debate. I often wonder if it really has that much to do with oil as it is suspect hardness of cam and lifter components. I know with the 4cyl TR4 and MGB engines there can be a great variety of rockwell hardness levels with different components. However, I run Brad Penn, which is supposed to have the "good stuff" Since I have the "antique" V8, I'm not taking chances. [:D]

Jim Underwood
72 MGB BRG
80 TR8 Persian Aqua
If women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy.

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