Another New Book Featuring TR7 & 8s

[john 215]

Hi,
Noticed this on Amazon this afternoon-

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Collectors-Orig ... 28&sr=1-12

I guess its a exspasion or collcetion of Bill Piggots other 'The Restorers Guide' books
Cheers John

LIVE LIFE A QUARTER OF A MILE AT A TIME!
1979 3.5 FHC(STATUS PENDING!!)

1982 2.0 DHC NOW A 4.6,ON THE ROAD NOW KICKING AR5E !!!!

[Ianftr8]

Thanks for the heads up on that John,

I will place an order. Not out until May though.

Cheers
Ian

Ian Freeman
1979 TR8 DHC California car that never crossed the pond, started life as KDU 315V.
1962 Triumph Courier

[Odd]

Well friends,
I just received my copy of the 'new' Piggott book: The Triumph TR2-TR8 Collector's Originality Guide, by Piggott and Simon Clay (photo)

and of course I leapt at the chance to see if he had only made a collection and reprint of the earlier (and full of errors) TR7/8 book contents
or if he had made a true effort to improve on that old erroneous mess...

An easy peasy thing to check was finding the infamous red dotted filler cap picture and picture caption. Sure enough, they're still there.
No improvement there. - I'm starting to think he actually believe the red dot was an American thing and not (as it was)
a warning marker on the Sherpa Van <u>diesel</u> version (who used the same filler cap and back then was a common spare parts donor...)

I haven't had time to read the text in detail yet, and/or to compare it to his original TR7/8 book and all the pencil marks of errors I have
in that one - will start doing it tonight at work. So, let's hope it's a slow and dull night shift coming...

To summarise;
hold your horses - and don't get your expectations high just yet. I think it's just a re-run of the old (very scratched!) movie...
/Odd

[john 215]

Hi Odd,
Was a bit concerned that this book may just include a shortened version of Bills other '7' book [?]-

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Original-Triump ... 650&sr=1-7

Cheers John

LIVE LIFE A QUARTER OF A MILE AT A TIME!
1979 3.5 FHC(STATUS PENDING!!)

1982 2.0 DHC NOW A 4.6,ON THE ROAD NOW KICKING AR5E !!!!

[Odd]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by john 215</i>
Was a bit concerned that this book may just include a shortened version of Bills other 'TR7' book <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Yes, it's exactly the same text (and pictures/picture captions), as far as I've read now. But they have cropped some pictures differently
- in some cases so brutally different that objects mentioned in the picture caption (objects that can be seen in the previous version)
are now missing in the picture: For instance page 260 top left picture and page 261 top right picture...

One <u>minor</u> improvement is the fact they've omitted the picture caption regarding the allegedly " substantially made " boot rack
under Options & Accessories (page 76) in the previous book. As we all know: anyone who have ever laid their hands on
one of the racks laugh out loud when reading <u>that</u> caption. But: Unfortulately they've omitted the picture as well, a justified
picture of a rather common accessory outside of the home market... That's actually one of the few pictures totally omitted
in the new edition...

I think this is going to be one hilarious read... [:D] I wonder if that was Piggotts intention maybe.

<i>Edit</i>:
My final judgement:
If you already have the previous book - save your money and buy beer! Much more rewarding!
If you don't have the previous book, and also lack all of the other similar ones from Piggott, buy this one
- and save all the other money for beer...

Not recommended.
(It's still got all the uncorrected errors in it, and I fear the other models <u>might</u> be the same
- but that I can't say since it's the TR8 I <u>know</u>...)

<font color="red"><b>My two 1980 Wedges...</b></font id="red">

[Chris Turner]

I think Bill Piggotts earlier books are excellent, not perfect but when published far superior to any others on the subject. I am still waiting for his critics to write the perfect book. I started to write a few chapters but realised just how difficult it is.

www.triumphtrs.co.uk
TR8 FHC
TR7 Sprint
TR7V8 rally car

[Odd]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Chris Turner</i>
I think Bill Piggotts earlier books are excellent, not perfect but when published far superior to any others on the subject.
I am still waiting for his critics to write the perfect book. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Chris,
I can't opinionate on Piggott's other/earlier books on other Triumphs for the simple reason I'm not
familiar with other models. I'll let other readers review those products... I'm not aiming to criticise
or derogate the authors, I just want my friends/colleagues/fellow wedgies to know <u>in advance</u>
what they're being offered when it comes to books... However, as I wrote on the TR8 mail list to a
guy asking me:
"
> Hi Odd
> I know you've got the list of the errors in the books,
> have you ever had any luck getting the info to the authors?

Regarding Piggott: I haven't even tried - I still vividly recall how Roger Williams wanted me shot/
strangled/drowned/sliced'n'fried etc. for having dared to comment on errors in his "How to"-book
some years back. I now think pointing out the errors in the books <i>to the authors</i> are a duty the
home market guys should have. Preferably already at the proof reading level - but if that is missed
and errors make it into the printed product - it's a thing for those who know/meet the authors...
They (the authors) obviously don't like to be informed of errors from overseas. Not even from the
main TR7/TR8 market...

I keep my notes so that I personally don't give the errors more life and spread than can be avoided...
And tell the ones I know about the level of accuracy/errors in the TR7/TR8 books I read... And, as
we all probably know; If an error is repeated enough times - people tend to take it as <i><u>the</u></i> <b>fact</b>...

I think I have a rather good rapport with the publicists at Veloce, and <u>they</u> do want to know of
erroneous data (for future new-prints as they say) but the author himself is 'unimpressed' it seems.
So, I've sort of given up.

If I were an author I'd also want my product to be as good as ever possible, at least in the version
1.1 (the re-print of the original issue which this new book is exactly) when user-originated input can
be found... But, I'm not an author type of person, handy with words etc. - and I don't have to live
on what I write (I've got a multibillion kr/€/£/$/¥ nuclear power plant taking care of that - and <u>it</u>
won't disappear overnight) and thus I can put in as much time as I ever want to ( = lots! of it:
"Hello all, my name is Odd - and I confess I'm a true anorak when it comes to TR8 data.")
into finding, storing and knowing things TR8. "

/Odd


PS
And I also confess to having (once!) said that TR7s are rolling spare parts storages for keeping
the TR8s on the road - so <u>do</u> keep the 7s rolling! Don't crush them! [:D]

<font color="red"><b>My two 1980 Wedges...</b></font id="red">

[Alec Pringle]

It's always easy to criticise a motoring author, and it's also all too easy to overestimate the author's importance in the publishing scheme of things - whether you're talking about books or magazines.

Bill Piggott is primarily interested in the earlier TRs, not Wedges. But if your publisher asks you to write something on Wedges, that's what you do - you have a living to make.

Books have a budget, and a schedule - which doesn't always allow for all the research and cross-checking and proof reading that an author would wish to do. The publisher calls the shots, not the author. When it comes to rehashing a previous offering into a new format, the author's input may not actually be that great. If he's involved at all, that is.

When it comes to TR2-6 there are considerable numbers of longterm enthusiasts possessed of immense and authoritative knowledge and archives. A TR author can call upon the assistance of these guys, confident that his facts can be checked and verified. My experience is that there are far fewer 7/8 enthusiasts able to offer that level of expertise. That's not being rude to anyone. Despite the 7 being the largest TR in terms of production numbers, there aren't so many owners who've been involved with the cars for 3,4,5 decades. Production having been shifted around 3 different factories, a myriad of changes during the production life, and a relative lack of original archive data doesn't help.

I happen to have known Bill Piggott for more than 30 years - when he wrote his first 'Original TR' book he called together a panel of experienced TR afficionados to work through his draft in detail. That was a long day's seminar, and hard work ! In my experience, Bill has always been keen to draw upon the experience of others, and to correct and improve his books when the opportunity arose. Such opportunities are usually at the whim of the publisher, and not necessarily afforded to the author when a book is reprinted or rehashed.

I'd suggest that the majority of motoring writers and historians are but humble scribes, only too willing to have errors and omissions pointed out to them. We're all seekers after knowledge, and learn something new most days. But there are exceptions to every rule !

For sure I can't imagine BP taking umbrage at constructive criticism, or the provision of corrections and/or additions to what he might have written. I know full well how many corrections and revisions he's made over the years.

What does irritate is well-intentioned but erroneous criticism. On occasion I've received ranting 'corrections' from enthusiasts convinced that what I've written in some magazine article was wrong. Even though it was clear that I was writing from my own firsthand experience, or quoting others involved in that particular situation. The critics were offering opinions drawn from erroneous commentary over the years . . . not everything that has been published is necessarily entirely correct !

Anyone wishing to offer constructive comment on Bill's offerings will, I'm sure, find a ready and enthusiastic response.

Cheers,

Alec

[PeterTR7V8]

Thank you for the insight Alec but the product needs to stand on its own two feet & if Bill is putting his name to something he has no control over then he'll need to accept the rough with the royalties especially if he has no great interest in the book's subject matter.

I think the comments made on this thread have been constructive but obviously made without the perspective of publishing reality that you have. Maybe we could add the rider "due to circumstances beyond the author's control" to any critical comments about the books shortcomings but I doubt Bill would be any happier with that.


Never say die. At least not while you're still breathing.

[john]

well i for one think is a good book as it gives me an insight into the other models and ties up all the TR's, fantastic

and it keeps the Triumph marques name fresh in the mind wether revamped and full of MINOR errors well done to releasing it i say.

actually i find it facinating reading and really minor flaws in this or everyday life goes right over my bold head lol[:D]

[8 whole cylinders worth of punch to ram the world through the windshield and out the rear view mirror. Car & Driver]
1981 Grinnall TR7 v8
1981 Black FHC
1979 & 1980 Black Premium FHC(laid to rest) Sorry


John

[Chris Turner]

I agree John.

www.triumphtrs.co.uk
TR8 FHC
TR7 Sprint
TR7V8 rally car

[john 215]

Hi Chris,
<u>Write That Book</u> i for one will buy it [;)]
Cheers John

LIVE LIFE A QUARTER OF A MILE AT A TIME!
1979 3.5 FHC(STATUS PENDING!!)

1982 2.0 DHC NOW A 4.6,ON THE ROAD NOW KICKING AR5E !!!!

[Alec Pringle]

Hi Guys,

After some lengthy discussions with the man himself, Bill has today requested that I make a few observations on his behalf – any errors or misunderstandings are my fault, not his !

Bill is a member of the TR Register’s management committee – and there is a convention by which TRR committee members don’t usually post on internet forums. Hence my translating his thoughts for him . . . .

Evidently this new ‘Original TR’ book was done in a great hurry last year – last minute publisher’s decision, and they wanted it yesterday. One of those !! Bill did not wish to include the 7/8s – the first 7/8 book was still available, whereas those for the earlier cars were long out of print. He hadn’t made any effort to update 7/8 material since writing the first book, a decade earlier, whereas he already had an amount of update available for the earlier TRs 2-6. The publishers decreed otherwise, end of discussion.

Perhaps I should explain that over the years Bill has become accustomed to each new book, TR or Healey, resulting in a flurry of suggested amendments and corrections from knowledgeable readers. Often enough, this happens because new historical information has come to light, not yet widely circulated. Bill is an anorak, all such comment is carefully tabulated for future reference, and the next publication duly improved and updated. I’ve seen some of this process myself, it’s hard to credit just how much material there can be to plough through, then cross reference, and check with other authorities. It’s one heck of a workload.

TR Register Registrars play a considerable role in this process, and always have done – as Bill is the first to acknowledge. In this instance, circumstances were such that Malcolm Paris wasn’t able to make the input he might have wished. Understandable, Malcolm has had a lot of problems over the past 3 years, he did well to plod on with his everyday Registrar’s tasks - and of course has subsequently handed over to Richard Connew.

Meanwhile, since the publication of the first ‘Original TR7/8’ book Bill had received absolutely no critical commentaries from the Wedge community – not a sausage. So he had no ‘expert advice’ to hand ready for incorporation. Hence the 7/8 section is in effect a straight rerun of the first book.

But to be fair, at £25 for a book incorporating all 3 previous volumes in one, and on decent paper as well . . . . quite a bargain, to my way of thinking. It might be a revelation to some that Bill reckons at 50p/copy royalty his earnings equate to just £4/hr – about what my magazine writing earns, I wouldn’t disagree with his assessment.

Naturally, Bill is not happy that the book isn’t as good as it could, and should have been, but he certainly isn’t casting any aspersions in Malcolm’s direction. However, he is disappointed by the lack of input over the years from TR7 and 8 enthusiasts.

So Bill will be ONLY TOO PLEASED to receive as much constructive criticism, detailed input, amendment, correction, updating etc etc as we care to throw at him for future reference. For understandable reasons, he’d prefer not to have his email address widely publicised. Please feel free to email stuff to yours truly, I’ll forward to Bill, and he can then discuss with you direct.

As a personal observation, can I please make it quite clear that Bill sees himself as a journeyman writer, not an expert on all things TR. He’s only too well aware of his relative lack of knowledge in respect of the later cars, and equally keen to incorporate the wisdom of others more knowledgeable in publications of future years.

That’s the challenge for you to rise to chaps, one day we might yet see a definitive TR7 and TR8 volume. Meanwhile, feel free to contact me . . . . tr8v8@hotmail.co.uk.

Cheers,

Alec

[Odd]

Thanks for telling us Alec.

[Workshop Help]

Let me see if I understand this. Are we saying that professional writers and publishers are NOT getting feedback from the TR7 community and, thus, rehashing the old with all it's misconceptions and errors?

Are we intimating that the one true source for current, valid, original TR7 articles is here on these forums?

Are the publishing houses even aware we exist? Or, do they poo-poo our amateurism as not worth the trouble of viewing?

Mildred Hargis