Anonymous

Cylinder Head Removal

The all purpose forum for any TR7/8 related topics.
Post Reply
HowardB
Wedge Pilot
Posts: 270
Joined: 01 Nov 2007 00:37
Location: United Kingdom
Contact:

Cylinder Head Removal

Postby HowardB » 29 Nov 2009 20:00

If this has been mentioned before, please ignore :)

Just joined the TR Register and in their magazine there is a very interesting article on how to remove the head of a standard 2l engine. Apparently Saab made a special frame for removing heads from the Triumph derived Saab 99 engine, which also works on Tr7's - in the article by Tim Woodthorpe he describes how he made one for himself and successfully removed his head despite the usual problems with stuck / broken studs.

jclay (RIP 2018)
TRemendous
Posts: 6027
Joined: 08 Jul 2006 17:13
Location: USA

Postby jclay (RIP 2018) » 29 Nov 2009 23:14

Interesting article I found in MOTOR Magazine (November 2009):

<i><b>By design, torque-to-yield bolts are tightened very close to their yield (stretch or
break) points. These bolts can very easily break during removal and installation unless
special procedures are followed.</b></i>

<b>Hit Me!</b>
<i>I am attempting to remove the cylinder head from a 4.2L Vortec 6-cylinder engine in a
2005 CMC Envoy. When I started to remove the head bolts, three out of the six I attempted
broke off. At that point, I decided to stop. Am I doing something wrong? Is there a special
procedure/or removing these bolts? And do I need to replace all of them when I finally get
the last one out?
John Stepp Tucson, AZ
</i>
Like most recent engines, the Vortec is equipped with torque-to-yield (TTY) head bolts.
You've probably installed bolts like these before. Instead of specifying a torque value for
bolt installation, the manufacturer requires that these bolts be tightened using a torque
plus angle procedure. After the bolt is tightened to the initial torque value, it's tightened
an additional number of degrees to reach the final value.

Tightening bolts in this manner brings them very close to their yield points. The yield
point is when a bolt begins to stretch or, if taken even further, breaks. Slightly stretching
bolts gives them the resilience they'll need to keep the gasket properly compressed over
thousands of heating and cooling periods in the engine's service life.

As you might imagine, a bolt that's been stretched (even slightly) is going to be more
fragile than a bolt that has been tightened but not stretched. When it comes time to
remove TTY, special precautions must be taken. GM issued a technical service bulletin on
this topic on Oct. 21, 2008 (No. 05-06-01-026B).

It applies to a wide range of GM models, including:
2004-07 Buick Rainier
2002-09 Chevrolet TrailBlazer and GMC Envoy
2004-09 Chevrolet Colorado and GMC Canyon
2002-04 Oldsmobile Bravada
2006-09 HUMMER H3
2005-09 Saab 9-7X

These models are equipped with 2.8, 2.9, 3.5, 3.7 or 4.2L Vortec inline engines with
VINs 8, 9, 6, E, S and RPOs LK5, LEV, L52, LLR, LL8.
All of these engines have TTY head bolts and may also have TTY main bearing cap bolts.

(Important to Triumph owners!)
<u>Over time, the head bolt threads may seize to the corresponding engine block internal
threads. When you attempt to remove the bolt, it breaks at its weakest point before the
seized threads break free</u>.
GM's solution to this problem is remarkably simple.
<u>Before attempting to remove the bolts, use an appropriately sized punch and hammer
to rap on the head of each head bolt. The vibration should free the seized threads and
assist in successful removal. </u><i><b>Do not use air tools of any kind during your removal
attempt</b></i>. <u>Using hand tools only, carefully but confidently remove the remaining bolts.</u>

In a perfect world, that would be the end of the story. But despite careful preparation and
your best efforts, some head bolts still may break. The strength of these bolts may have
been compromised by the torque-to-yield procedure and they just weren't strong enough
to make the return trip out of the engine.

Don't despair; GM offers an additional lifeline.
A broken bolt extractor kit (Part No.EN-47702) is available to assist in removal of the remaining bolt segment.

The kit includes the following components:
• One 1/2-in. reverse-twist drill (EN-47702-6);
• One double-ended drill pilot insert (EN-47702-1) to ensure a straight drilling procedure;
• Drill pilot inserts for larger diameter head or main cap bolts (EN-47702-2) to ensure a straight drilling procedure;
• Bolt extraction #3 EZ Out (EN-47702-3) to be used after the drilling procedure;
• M11x2 bottom tap (EN-47702-5) to chase the head bolt threads after the completion of bolt removal;
• M10xl.5 bottom tap (EN-47702-4) to chase the main bolt threads after the completion of bolt removal.

Image
<font size="2"><i>Despite your best efforts, some
torque-to-yield cylinder head
bolts still may break during removal.
If they do, special tools like this
reverse-twist drill bit may be needed
to remove the remaining broken bolt
segment from the block.</i></font id="size2">

The bolt threads may loosen when the bolt breaks. In this case, you may be able to
remove the remaining bolt segment by backing it out with a pick tool or the reverse-twist
drill bit. It's worth a try before you get into drilling the broken segment for the EZ Out.

After all of the broken bolt segments have been removed, some careful preparation is
necessary before reinstalling the cylinder head. In addition to cleaning the gasket mating
surfaces, the threaded engine block holes must be propped for installation of the TTY
bolts. Utilize a thread chase tool like those found in the EN-47702 kit to clean the
threads. Follow this cleaning with dry compressed air to ensure that the threads are clean
and dry prior to installation of new TTY bolts. Do not place oil or threadlocker on the
bolts. <i>Never</i> reuse TTY cylinder head or main bearing bolts.

Threads contaminated by trace amounts of debris, antifreeze or oil will cause the bolts to
creak or snap while being tightened. These bolts will fail due to excessive torque. In
extreme cases, the threads may need additional cleaning with a nonresidue cleaner like a
brake clean product followed by drying with clean and dry compressed air.

jclay

[url="http://web.mac.com/jclaythompson/iWeb/Site/Welcome.html"]My Triumph Site[/url], [url="http://web.mac.com/jclaythompson/iWeb/Technical/Intro.html"]Technical Stuff[/url], [url="http://homepage.mac.com/WebObjects/FileSharing.woa/53/wo/HJMTK8gsojtwKleP.1/0.2.1.2.26.31.97.0.35.0.1.1.1?user=jclaythompson&fpath=Triumph_Articles&templatefn=FileSharing4.html"]Download Page[/url]

FI Spyder
TRemendous
Posts: 8920
Joined: 03 Jul 2006 19:54
Location: Canada

Postby FI Spyder » 30 Nov 2009 01:38

A couple of years ago in Two Guys Garage TV show they were having a race on assembling two identical high output engines. for the head bolts they used a tool that measures the stretch of the bolt rather than the torque. They said it was the "modern" way of tightening head bolts more accurate and better on high out put engines that could other wise blow their head gaskets.



TR7 Spider - 1978 Spifire - 1976 Spitfire - 1988 Tercel 4X4 - Kali on Integra - 1991 Integra
Image

Marko
Wedgista
Posts: 1018
Joined: 20 Aug 2006 16:53
Location: Croatia
Contact:

Postby Marko » 30 Nov 2009 17:51

the article is written like high tensile studs are something invented yesterday.

one thing is bothering me, we have lots of problems on our old cars with studs seizing due to corrosion, to inhibit that corrosion some sort of lubrication or particle filling is required, copper grease or ceramic grease does wonders in the anti-seizure and galling department.

threads wont loosen up if they are lubricated and torqued properly. same goes for spark plugs, wheel nuts, suspension components, anything that has to be disassembled every couple of years in a life-cycle of a car.

another thing, every single "internet tuner" article i've read states that studs shouldn't be pre-tensioned to relieve the load on the base material when the final torquing of the head stresses the bolt in tension.

when you screw in a stud by hand and then torque the head, the engine block material is stressed in tension , the stud tries to pull out the surrounding material around its hole in the block , that way you get deformations of the engine block around the stud holes when you remove the head.

every single engineering handbook or fastener handbook states that the studs should be pre-tensioned before loading it . what does that do? you compress the surrounding material around the hole so its stressed in compression, when you load the bolt in tension, that compression of the engine block turns to no load in the area around the stud holes.

there is always a "but" . these tr7 studs are made of Play-Doh compared to other fastener material. i remember someone on this forum stating that he/she successfully replaced the head studs with grade 8.8 bolts. so the stock studs are equal or lower than that.

back to the article, i would dare to say the new GM (not only GM , but the rest of the worlds car manufacturers too) engines are build with such cheap materials and to such limits of factor of safety that the engine replacement is cheaper than engine repair. just look at the new ford duratec engines , they are unserviceable, you remove the head the whole head and block bend out of shape.

same with those studs,they are made to such a limit that they survive the installation and the engine's "average" life, anything beyond that ,they snap

Marko
Wedgista
Posts: 1018
Joined: 20 Aug 2006 16:53
Location: Croatia
Contact:

Postby Marko » 30 Nov 2009 18:01

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by FI Spyder</i>

A couple of years ago in Two Guys Garage TV show they were having a race on assembling two identical high output engines. for the head bolts they used a tool that measures the stretch of the bolt rather than the torque. They said it was the "modern" way of tightening head bolts more accurate and better on high out put engines that could other wise blow their head gaskets.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

its called strain measurement. most metals have the transition between elastic ( you bend it and it returns to original shape) and plastic (you bend it and it stays bent) areas at 0.2% of overall length of deformation in pure tension.

our stud is a example of pure tension. if a stud is 100mm long when its unloaded , it will cross its yield strength (elastic area) when the stud is stretched over 100.2 mm ( if my math is right : 100mm*0.2/100).

you just screw in your studs measure their position with a dial indicator when unloaded, then measure them again when the head is torqued down, to check that the limit described above was not reached. or that there aren't differences in load between studs.

but those are "old school" methods when people didn't have torque wrenches they where too expensive, or they just wanted another "instrument" to check the tension of bolts- lubrication play's a big role in torquing , debris, damage in production, etc...

Workshop Help
TRiffic
Posts: 1891
Joined: 27 Feb 2007 23:52
Location: Worldwide

Postby Workshop Help » 30 Nov 2009 20:01

Having read this thread several times and pondering the ramifications, I can't help wondering: A. Is this another reinvention of the wheel with several 90 degree corners added just for the sake of childrens safety? B. We have very high quality engine block material, does this really apply to us? C. With our more or less 100 horsepower engines and limited combustion chamber pressures, the Grade 8 headbolt conversion of ours is still holding strong after 5 years and some 35,000 miles without ever being retorqued. D. If this is what the brave new world is all about, I'd just as soon stay happy by never buying those products and keeping the Triumph till the end, and then be buried in it.

I guess that's why we all here still have these cars. We have an appreciation of the living past. That may be the reason my mid 1960's Zenith tube radio is still being played each morning to hear the local news and weather report.

Mildred Hargis

uspsmech
Wedgling
Posts: 22
Joined: 27 Nov 2009 01:53
Location: Rhode Island USA

Postby uspsmech » 03 Dec 2009 02:31

Mildred, your comments may well be the best i've read in a long while, at least they made me smile, thanks Jim

jclay (RIP 2018)
TRemendous
Posts: 6027
Joined: 08 Jul 2006 17:13
Location: USA

Postby jclay (RIP 2018) » 03 Dec 2009 03:39

I mainly posted the article for the suggestions for removing the bolts and for the removal kits. Seems like the kits might be helpful if you have a broken stud in the engine head.

But, there I go thinking again.

<font color="red"><b>Hum? Too bad we can't have several made and send them to members for the cost of postage. We could keep a list on the forum of who has one and who need to use one to pull a head.

Just a thought!</b></font id="red">

jclay

[url="http://web.mac.com/jclaythompson/iWeb/Site/Welcome.html"]My Triumph Site[/url], [url="http://web.mac.com/jclaythompson/iWeb/Technical/Intro.html"]Technical Stuff[/url], [url="http://homepage.mac.com/WebObjects/FileSharing.woa/53/wo/HJMTK8gsojtwKleP.1/0.2.1.2.26.31.97.0.35.0.1.1.1?user=jclaythompson&fpath=Triumph_Articles&templatefn=FileSharing4.html"]Download Page[/url]

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 69 guests

cron