Your views on HF fuel pressure regulator invited

[Col_Callan]

Hi all

Has anyone instaled one of these regulators to a 2ltr standard spec?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/8mm-10mm-Manu ... 3f1e910f2a

Its a hose-fittingsuk rebadged sytec . goes up to 5 psi.

Im thinking of adding one as after a full (inc floats seals etc) carbs rebuild front float is flooding without the spacer on the pump and am getting no fuel through with the spacer. So suspect its a pressure issue.

Are these reliable.Seen a few horror stories on line but suspect its individuals fitting them to PI cars.
Views?
ta
E

Col Callan
Moffat. Scotland.
81 Tr7 fhc- Spend spend spend.....
74 Dolly Sprint. - On the mend...
85 Kawasaki Gpz1000Rx...round the bend

[Workshop Help]

Yes, I have one installed on my 1976 model. However, a few caveats first.

1. A fuel pressure regulator should not be needed on a stock, mechanical fuel pump designed for a TR7 carbureted engine.
2. The fuel pressure our carburetors need is 2 PSI or less, as in 1.5 PSI.
3. The use of the correct spacer on the 'long' arm fuel pumps is a necessity.

Now, with that out of the way, let's talk fuel pressure regulators. A regulator IS needed when using an electric fuel pump whose output pressure exceeds the 2 PSI limit our poor little carburetor inlet needle valves can tolerate. As this 2 PSI limit practically eliminates all the pumps on the market, a regulator is needed to protect our engines from bad, bad things.

My electric pump is like all the rest in it's generous output pressure. Therefore, a Fuel Pressure Regulator is installed on the fuel line right before the line feeds into the fuel distribution rail to the carburetors. It is set at 1.5 PSI. This keeps the float bowls filled without overwhelming the needle valves.

I seem to recall it cost about $30.00US, 3-4 years ago when the electric pump was installed. The installation was simple and caused no undue nightmares.

So, my friend, what exactly are your reasons for lusting after a regulator when you most likely do not need one with a mechanical pump?

Mildred Hargis

[Hasbeen]

Yep Col, as you think, & Mildred confirms, your problem is fuel pressure.

I have used regulators on racing cars, with high flow usage, but had nothing but trouble with them on road cars, particularly 7s. I'd try to space the pump first. Even with a clean tank, the thing would stop passing fuel, & have to be back flushed before it would work again.

If your pressure is too high, but you get no pumping with the spacer, use a thinner one, or get the one you have faced down to about 1/2 thickness. Spacers are available. I was fortunate enough to have the only one of 5 staff at my local parts supplier who knew this, hear another staff telling me they were not. He grabbed a book & found the listing for me. I grabbed 2, one for me, & one for a mate restoring a Dolly sprint, & having flooding problems.

There is a New Zealand made pump, which is solid state, but looks like the old SU pump, available. They come in different pressures, including a 1 to 2 PSI pump, & a 2 to 3 & 3 to 4 PSI version.

I was advised the 2 to 3 PSI version was working happily on SU fitted 7s, & in some doubt, fitted one. In some thousands of kilometers it has performed happily, & the SUs have not flooded.

I did a no/no, & installed the thing in the engine bay, where it is gravity fed from a full tank, & syphon fed from a lower one. I am just too old to be crawling under cars on the side of the road, as a troublesome pump would require if installed at the tank. So far the pump seems happy in this spot. Perhaps this installation is reducing the pressure a little, but no flooding with it.

Hasbeen

[Workshop Help]

Now that supper is over, my diatribe will continue.

The long arm, the short arm, which arm is best? To be succinct, this mucking about with spacer thickness is a waste of money and time when the short arm pump dispenses with the issue and works just fine. Yes, the early short arm fuel pump is a good solution. The next question is; Why the two arm length pumps?

On the early model cars, a short arm pump was fitted for the 1975 and 1976 model years. Somewhere along the way, a malcontent thought the engine heat in certain hell-holes across the globe was frothing the fuel in the pump causing a vapor lock condition. In response, the boffins told A/C to fit a longer actuator arm to the same pump body with a phenolic block twixt the pump and the engine block for a measure of heat insulation.

Where were these hell-holes? Texas, for one, and the neighborhoods around where Hasbeen and Cobber reside. However the truth be told, this vapor lock condition in the heat of summer was never really confirmed as this authors TR7 experienced many hot & humid days in my neck of the woods without so much as a burp from the engine.

With you living in an area without the TR7 sweat box phenomena, a solution would be to install the early cars short arm fuel pump and live without these headaches.

Moving onto your front carb floods and the rear one doesn't, please recheck the float levels on each unit and install a new needle valve on the front carburetor. Once the mixtures have settled down, proceed to balance the air flow and the synchronization.

Mildred Hargis

[Hasbeen]

Yes Mildred, that would be nice, if we could get the short arm pump, which we can't. The distributors who import pumps prefer to have just the one generic pump to fit all & keep their inventory down.

They do occasionally get a stuff up, & have short arm pumps, which don't work on many cars, & can only be told apart when you have one of each side by side, to compare.

Even worse, in most instances, unless you are on this forum, or using a good triumph specialist, you won't even know you have been sold a generic pump, when you asked for one for your TR7.

In one instance an acquaintance, hundreds of kilometers from anyone knowledgeable, took the diaphragm & check valves from a new pump, [$132 in Oz], & installed them in his old pump. One hell of an expensive way to get a no longer available repair kit, but he had the right pump working properly, so a satisfactory result.

Hasbeen

[Workshop Help]

Hasbeen, sweetie, you're just not trying hard enough. (THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID!)*

Here's how you do it. Since about all that's available is the Italian aftermarket pump, press out the actuating arm pivot pin and install the old short arm from your junk pile pump. There you have it, a new pump with the easy to live with short actuating arm.

As for finding a short arm fuel pump, one needs to open your mystic conscience to the vastness of the Cosmos. This means looking in the parts bins for the earlier Dolomite engines AND the SAAB engines.

If all else fails, go ye forth down the electric pump and fuel pressure regulator path. If it's good enough for the TR8 boys, it's good enough for us.

Mildred Hargis

* This is the punch line for a whole slew of trite little jokes concerning the Hemale/Shemale biologic function.

[Col_Callan]

Thanks for all the updates. Having spent the past hour trying to upload a picture of said fuel pump to be told its too big, shrunk it, to be told that Ive used an "Invalid character or bad word in any of the text fields. Please correct and try again"..

Well yes as a result I have actually used several bad words and given up so sadly, collective, you will only get the dimensions and prose, not the image.

The lever extends 42mm or 1"11/16 from the face of the pump and has a travel of 7mm or 1/4". the spacer i have is 1/2" 12.5mm thick.Inlet and output pipes are circa 45' to each other and the top is secured with 5 screws about the rim.

I can email a picture of it (or if anyone can tell a miffed IT implementation manager [:o)] what i am doing wrong with the upload Ill do that).

As mentioned earlier everything that could be was relplaced inthe srvice so I will strip errant float chamber and reclean it and try again.

I did buy an electric pump / inertia trip switch etc but on receipt had an outbreak of "couldnt be @rs3d" when i saw it had to go below the tank at the back of the car. Given the low pressure required for the TR do they REALLY have to go there or will it behave in the engine bay?

Col Callan
Moffat. Scotland.
81 Tr7 fhc- Spend spend spend.....
74 Dolly Sprint. - On the mend...
85 Kawasaki Gpz1000Rx...round the bend

[Hasbeen]

The thickest spacer I have used was 1/4" thick, with a couple of extra gaskets, I would not expect a pump with a 1/2" spacer to pump.

What pressure is the electric pump Col? Many of them are 4 PSI, & above, too high for SUs.

In my post I mentioned that I installed the electric pump in the engine bay, not because of the hassle with mounting it at the tank, but the hassle of that position, if it gave trouble on the road.

The one I installed had instructions to mount it below & near the tank, as it is not a lift pump. Our tanks are mounted high, & when full above the sender fitting, [1/2 full], gravity feed to the engine bay, & continue to syphon feed to the engine bay, once the flow is started, until empty.

For this reason I assumed an engine bay instillation would be OK, & it has proved so. I never let any car fuel tank get much below 1/2 full, so can't guarantee it would work on a very low tank, but it should.

I expect you will now have a sleepless night making a decision on which way to go, but I suggest further mucking with the front carb will be a waste of time.

I went through that process, with modifications lowering the angle of the float bowl, [unsuccessful], & machining the top of the float bowl down over an 1/8", to lower the effective float level, again unsuccessfully.

I also installed a new borrowed mechanical pump sola as a 7 pump. This was quite exciting. Within a couple of seconds of starting the car with this pump, I had 2 jets, like those from a garden hose, squirting out of the overflow pipes on the float bowl tops. Not a good look at all.

Incidentally, use only fuel injection hose for any instillation you do. There is some very low quality, either Chinese or Mexican standard fuel hose on the marked, labeled with a quality manufacturers name, which will not last a year before splitting.

Hasbeen

[Workshop Help]

SIGH!!!

My friend in Scotland, as to the photos, we have several 'Sticky' threads dealing with how to post a photo. Please visit Photobucket.com and jump thru their hoops. Do observe that when the photo is copied to your post, it is necessary to delete much of the photo verbiage to get the photo the right size for this forum. It takes a bit of trial & error along with the use of colorful technical language, much like the Sergeant Major uses when trying to decipher what the F---ing Colonel wants, to use an old GI expression.

As to the electric fuel pump, yes, it needs to be located under and next to the fuel tank. I have posted an article on this chore several years ago along with detailed photos showing the deed. This way, you can run the gas tank level on down to empty if you want. But, as our friend Hasbeen says, the engine bay pump is easy to access. I fretted over this issue as well until I bit the bullet and put it where it truly belongs.

Now on to the mechanical fuel pump.



This is the 'long' arm fuel pump. As you can see, it is a QH product, part # QFP32. It is made in Italy and is distinguished by the screws securing the top to the base. Also, note the actuating arm fulcrum pin that can be pressed out and the short arm fitted, provided you have a junk QH short arm pump available.

I have had this new pump in my spare parts inventory for 10 years. Back then it cost $22.95US. It has an expected service life of about 2 years and then the internal O-ring seal deteriorates allowing crankcase pressure to leak out the vent hole in the bowl of the pump. The fulcrum pin works itself loose and finally falls out on the side of the road about 500 yards from where the engine stalls. And, about this time the alcohol in the gasoline has reduced the pump diaphragm to a jelly wafer that won't keep up the pressure to pass the gas.

Two years is all you get. Now, my friends, do you understand why I quit the struggle and went the electric pump route?

Mildred Hargis

[FI Spyder]

Moss UK has this Facet electronic manufactured in the USA. It can push or pull and is listed from 1.5 psi to 4 psi. In their instructions they don't say how, I assume in the manufacturers instructions they do. It is good for blended fuels. They have tried other similar brands but now stick with this one for quality control.

http://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=30837

British Parts North West has this one from Germany (more Expensive). While These are in the MGB/C section (which have SU's) I assume they would work for Zeniths as well.

http://www.bpnorthwest.com/mg/mgb/fuel-system/fuel-pump-electronic-dual-polarity-bj8-e-type-65-to-71-mgb.html



- - -TR7 Spider - - - 1978 Spitfire- - - - 1976 Spitfire - - 1988 Tercel 4X4 - Kali on Integra - 1991 Integra - Yellow TCT

[Hasbeen]

One little known fact, SUs & Zeniths use the same needle & seat in the float bowl. They therefore require the same fuel pressure.

This can be useful if no one in your area stocks them for the carbs you have, but do stock for the other type.

Hasbeen

[Hasbeen]

Well one good thing about Oz is the petrol is not too bad. We had E10, ethanol polluted stuff around for a while, & perhaps some areas still do, but the only stations stocking it in my area have not had any for a couple of years at least.

With no ethanol, my old pump worked perfectly for 11 years, without trouble. It was only after it went on the new engine I started having problems with it.

In view of this, I wonder if the machining of the blocks was accurate on all, or if the mounting face for the pump could be machined to a different distance from the jack shaft. Just a thought. My engine has a new block.

A little story from an earlier era on fuel pumps.

We were going on holiday in out 1930 Dodge in the early/mid 50s. It's performance became progressively sluggish, & finally was having trouble getting up hills, & spluttered to a halt. It would run, but not pull.

A passing motorist took a message to the motoring club agent in the next town, & a roadside assist mechanic duly arrived. He did not even look at the thing. From the message we had sent he knew what the problem would be.

In those days of poor oil, the brass cam lever on fuel pumps used to wear quite quickly. He took the top off the fuel pump, fitted a 3 penny piece, [a small silver coin] into the metal cup in the center of the diaphragm the lever operated against, & reassembled the pump.

The thickness of the coin was enough to get the thing pumping again, & he told dad to get the cam end of the lever built up with braze, when we reached our destination.

Those were the days. When mechanics could not only diagnose faults without a computer, but could apply a temporary or permanent repair, rather than fit a new item.

Hasbeen

[Col_Callan]

Hi there

Still struggling with the piccys - will get it sorted.

But suffice to say my pump is v similar to Mildreds spares box example bar the small "turret " on the top. Mine does not have that.

I will give the float chamber one last visit this weekend in case a lump of crud got into it.

If thats the case then its all coming off an getting flushed thru.
The electric pump I have is a facet 60106 a 4-7 psi pump. So a regulator (and filter) will be fitted

Im coming around to the idea that the electronic way is the best and biting the bullet re location is probably the long term sensible thing to do.

Thanks as ever for the guidance

Ill keep you appraised via this post.

Col Callan
Moffat. Scotland.
81 Tr7 fhc- Spend spend spend.....
74 Dolly Sprint. - On the mend...
85 Kawasaki Gpz1000Rx...round the bend