Anonymous

Timing question

Here’s where to discuss anything specific about your standard(ish) car or something that applies to the model in general.
Stag76
Swagester
Posts: 691
Joined: 22 Jun 2010 04:14
Location: Australia
Contact:

Postby Stag76 » 15 May 2014 19:12

There will only be a single ignitor circuit in the Crane unit, controlled by the chopper in the distributor...solid = points closed, gap = points open. Is the chopper the correct one for this distributor, as it has to maintain the relationship between the rotor position and the crane unit firing.

You can connect the timing light to cylinder 4 with the engine running, and it should fire at the same timing mark as cylinder 1. Then make a mark (chalk) on the pulley 180 degrees from the TDC mark (ie diagonally across the pulley), and connect the timing light to cylinder 2, then 3, which should both be firing at the new mark. This will verify that the Crane unit is firing at the correct timing.

Then set the engine to TDC on no 1 Cylinder, remove the cap, and check that the rotor is pointing directly to where the pickup for NO 1 cylinder should be. There should also be an opening in the chopper passing through the optical sensor. If the distributor is not phased properly, there is a remote chance that it is cross-firing when you retard it. This could explain cylinder 3 firing intermittently. This is more of an 8-cylinder problem, and not really likely on a 4 cylinder, but worth checking.

TR7 Convertible
Sprint Motor
MegaSquirt EFI

sheetsofsound
Rust Hunter
Posts: 217
Joined: 02 Aug 2012 03:48
Location: Canada
Contact:

Postby sheetsofsound » 16 May 2014 03:31

I've locked the garage and only my fatigue has stopped me from setting it ablaze.

New distributor, new rotor. Could barely start the damn thing. Checked the optical pick up position and adjusted it by a millimeter or two. Got the thing to start. Got to 4 degrees BTDC with knocking at a minimum, but still knocking, and loudly.

Checked each spark plug wire and got a steady flash on all - something is fixed, although you'd never bloody know it by the way the engine still chugs like a tractor.

Couldn't get idle below 1000 rpm without the loud knocking scaring the s**t out of me. Checked the synchronization of the carbs using rubber hose - all equal. Checked the mixture using the air valve - seems good.

Tried to test drive - ha! Got about 10 feet in reverse and it chugged so bad it quit. I was lucky to start it again and pull forward back into the garage. On acceleration - we're talking 0 to 0.0005 kph - the knocking is extreme and then stops when the rpm is above 1500.

What are the symptoms of a failing ignition system? Could this Allison/Crane set up just need replacing? My enthusiasm for this project is draining, and quickly.

Just read your post, Stag76. Thanks for the suggestions; I will try them tomorrow if I don't sleepwalk out to the garage tonight and perpetrate unspeakable violence on this TR's inanimate a**.

Question: could a weak coil be the cause of this?

Workshop Help
TRiffic
Posts: 1891
Joined: 27 Feb 2007 23:52
Location: Worldwide

Postby Workshop Help » 16 May 2014 11:46

Please, Oh, Please, my dearest friend. We beseech you to end this torture once and for all. Call up your neighbor across the bay at British Parts Northwest and order a Pertronix Ignitor to replace that defective Crane-Allison unit.

If the heavy knocking persists, then the oil pan will need to be dropped and the rod and main bearings examined. This could get expensive tho it can be lots of fun.

Mildred Hargis

P.S.

No, the coil is functioning as it should.

M.H.

sheetsofsound
Rust Hunter
Posts: 217
Joined: 02 Aug 2012 03:48
Location: Canada
Contact:

Postby sheetsofsound » 17 May 2014 16:00

Alright. Have ordered the Pertronix and await delivery. Every sunny day that passes without driving the TR7 is a pain in my heart...

This better be it. I don't want the fun of redoing the main bearings and/ or rods and pistons.

Stag76
Swagester
Posts: 691
Joined: 22 Jun 2010 04:14
Location: Australia
Contact:

Postby Stag76 » 17 May 2014 22:56

A weak coil won't cause these problems...hard starting is the usual first sign, but it is rare for a coil to fail.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Have ordered the Pertronix and await delivery <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Is there something wrong with the Crane Unit?


TR7 Convertible
Sprint Motor
MegaSquirt EFI

sheetsofsound
Rust Hunter
Posts: 217
Joined: 02 Aug 2012 03:48
Location: Canada
Contact:

Postby sheetsofsound » 18 May 2014 02:18

I have wondered the same thing about the Crane unit.

The reason I wondered about the coil was that I had tried to adjust the mixture using the method outlined in Mildred's thread and when I removed the bolt to look at the colour of the flame, I couldn't see a flame at all. This made me wonder about the strength of the spark.I have used the same method on my other car and it worked very well, so I know what it should look like. I thought it strange at the time that I couldn't see any evidence of combustion, but what with the knocking and rough running, I started chasing electrical gremlins and kind of ignored the carbs and worries about fine tuning the mixture. According to the air valve test, the mixture seems right, if a little lean, perhaps.

I don't know what the symptoms of a weak spark are, but when the new distributor and rotor solved the intermittent spark on cylinder #3 but didn't improve the rough running and knocking, it put me in mind of not seeing the combustion flame and I wondered about the efficacy of Crane unit and the Allison coil providing a strong spark for combustion.

I don't know how to test the Crane unit, so swapping it out seems like the next logical step. Any other opinions? I feel a bit like I'm grasping at straws.

Stag76
Swagester
Posts: 691
Joined: 22 Jun 2010 04:14
Location: Australia
Contact:

Postby Stag76 » 18 May 2014 02:49

The fact that the knocking is related to retarding the timing suggests that it is a timing issue of some sort.

If the Crane system is firing all plugs at the correct timing (1 & 4 at TDC, 2 & 3 at 180 degrees BTDC) you can safely assume that it is working OK.

Did you check that the gap in the chopper is passing through the eye when the crank is at TDC on NO 1 Cylinder, and that the rotor is pointing exactly to where the NO 1 Cylinder pickup should be. You can mark the distributor body so you can see where it is when the cap has been removed.

Have you checked the firing order...1-3-4-2 ANTI-Clockwise on the distributor cap.

These are basic things, but still worth checking...don't ask how I know.

Can you post a video of it running?

TR7 Convertible
Sprint Motor
MegaSquirt EFI

sheetsofsound
Rust Hunter
Posts: 217
Joined: 02 Aug 2012 03:48
Location: Canada
Contact:

Postby sheetsofsound » 18 May 2014 16:40

Well, thanks to all who have helped me with this mess.

I'm not sure what made me think of it, but the last post from Stag76 put me in mind of plugs, and thinking back to what's been done... anyway, the plug in cylinder #4 was dead; it had previously been in cylinder #3 and I thought the fact that it showed absolutely no signs of combustion was due to the fact that the distributor wasn't giving a consistent pulse on that wire. I swapped out the plug to no avail, assumed it was good, and attributed the misfire to the dizzy. I returned the plug to the engine, this time in cylinder #4.

I ordered a new ignition system (which I've now cancelled) and while awaiting it's arrival, thought I'd pull the plugs to have a look and recheck the compression. What do you know, the plug in #4 showed no signs of combustion. Anyway, long story short and 4 new plugs later - she runs. No misfire, steady vacuum at 17.5, and timing set to 2 degrees BTDC no problem. No knock. Smooth acceleration. I'm pretty certain she'll pass the emissions test on Tuesday, which is the earliest I can get her there.

This forum is great.

Workshop Help
TRiffic
Posts: 1891
Joined: 27 Feb 2007 23:52
Location: Worldwide

Postby Workshop Help » 18 May 2014 22:46

Excellent! One last thing, if you don't mind, what is the ohm reading on each of your spark plug cables? They should all be about 5000 ohms.

The reason I ask is, while a defective spark plug is possible, it is more rare than a defective ignition cable.

Mildred Hargis

sheetsofsound
Rust Hunter
Posts: 217
Joined: 02 Aug 2012 03:48
Location: Canada
Contact:

Postby sheetsofsound » 18 May 2014 23:21

The cables themselves read about 1000 ohms each. When I measured from the inside of my old distributor, the lead running to cylinder #3 was reading all over the place, dependent on where I touched the contact. This was true even after changing the leads. When I got the new distributor, I checked from inside the cap again and all the leads were about the same - 1000 to 1200 ohms.

I won't buy cheap plugs again, that's for sure.

By the way, I noticed that rather fetching vacuum gage in one of you photos. Is there something in the workshop manual section about hooking that up? I don't care a hang about having the clock.

saabfast
TRiffic
Posts: 1936
Joined: 03 Feb 2006 08:17
Location: Bexhill-on-Sea

Postby saabfast » 19 May 2014 10:47

NGK are the recommended plugs for the TR7 and are generally very cheap. (They are the ONLY plug that Trionic Saabs can use as they are used by the ignition/ECU system for anti knock sensing and other things, other plugs wreck the DI unit). Don't want to repeat my previous statement for fear of irritating our European friends, but they used to be excellent quality plugs made in Japan.

Alan
Saab 9000 Stg 1 (now passed to son for his family car)
Saab 9000 2.3 FPT Auto (now gone that others might live)
Saab 9000 2.3 LPT Auto (sold on, wish I had it back)
Saab 9-5 2.3 Vector Auto Estate
'81 TR7 DHC
Image

FI Spyder
TRemendous
Posts: 8920
Joined: 03 Jul 2006 19:54
Location: Canada

Postby FI Spyder » 19 May 2014 14:08

I just put a set of NGK platinum plugs in mine (the centre electrode comes to almost a point) and set them to the recommended 25 thou gap. It runs better than the Autolites that were in there.

http://www.ngksparkplugs.ca/products-spark-plugs-gpower.cfm

I had a Yamaha 100 Twin Jet back in the day and NGK was the only thing it would run on, although it probably needed a tune up which I didn't think of until I was on an IBM course were one of my class mates used to road race them and I saw him adjusting the points before every race to make sure everything was at maximum.



- - -TR7 Spider - - - 1978 Spitfire- - - - 1976 Spitfire - - 1988 Tercel 4X4 - Kali on Integra - 1991 Integra - Yellow TCT
Image

sheetsofsound
Rust Hunter
Posts: 217
Joined: 02 Aug 2012 03:48
Location: Canada
Contact:

Postby sheetsofsound » 21 May 2014 00:16

Took the car in for emissions testing - and failed again. The CO reading was too high. Took it to a mechanic friend of mine to put it on his sniffer. If the CO is adjusted so it will pass, the hydrocarbons are too high; if the HC is right, then the CO is too high.

I am back to fiddling with the carbs. I will be spending this evening adjusting the bypass valves and using Mildred's thread in the Workshop Manual section to adjust the mixture.

Since the misfire is now solved, the car is very very nice to drive. I would just like to be able to drive it legally.

FI Spyder
TRemendous
Posts: 8920
Joined: 03 Jul 2006 19:54
Location: Canada

Postby FI Spyder » 21 May 2014 01:41

If you moved over to the Island you wouldn't have to put up with that nonsense.[:p][8D]

Sorry can't help you with emissions stuff. I'm surprised they still test on cars this old.

- - -TR7 Spider - - - 1978 Spitfire- - - - 1976 Spitfire - - 1988 Tercel 4X4 - Kali on Integra - 1991 Integra - Yellow TCT
Image

sheetsofsound
Rust Hunter
Posts: 217
Joined: 02 Aug 2012 03:48
Location: Canada
Contact:

Postby sheetsofsound » 23 May 2014 03:50

I should have moved to the island when I had the chance...

Can't get through emissions testing. The engine runs really nicely - very smooth - but the HC is really high at idle. If I lean it out to almost a lean misfire, I can get the CO levels down to almost 0 at idle, but the HC goes up past 550ppm. If I bring up the CO levels by richening the mixture slightly, the HC comes down, but only to 450 or so, then starts to rise. (I need 416 to pass.) I've tried fiddling the timing by a few degrees and re-adjusting things, but I just can't get the HC down to where it needs to be. I'm thinking of putting in a small catalytic converter, as that should get me roadworthy.

For the driving test, the engine is a champ; the readings are well below the test limits on all counts.

At least my timing issue is solved and the misfire is gone. At the right mixture, the engine is really nice and the car is fun to drive.

Anyone else put in a catalytic converter? How much does it affect performance?

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 28 guests