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It's all about the driver, not the car, the driver

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Hasbeen
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It's all about the driver, not the car, the driver

Postby Hasbeen » 28 Dec 2008 06:30

Further to my post on the "Something New" thread, another story, [or
2] by the old bloke.

Jim clarke was the bane of Collin Chapmans life. Sure he won Lotus
lots more races than any other driver could have, but he was totally
illiterate when it came to understanding handling, & was no help in
developing Lotus cars.

Clarke would be given a new lotus F1 to test, would do lap record
times, & when asked what he thought of the car would simply
say, "it's fine", & wander off. Other drivers, of the same car,
would spin off, all over the place, & if they got back to the pit
area would complain the thing was a death trap, & totally
un-drivable.

To test him once, the pit crew, including a couple of Ozy mates of
mine, once set up a car to be totally un-drivable, for a private
practice session. Clarke lapped at lap record speeds, & declared the
car, you guessed it, fine.

In a Monarco GP, he had the pick up, for the rear anti roll bar fall
off, [it was a Lotus], early in the race. The car would now be
understeering so badly, most of us would have gone straight on, at
the next corner, killing ourselves, or retired immediatly.

After one lap, to get the feel of this now useless car, Clarke set a
new lap record, & was running away from the field, when something
else broke, [it was a Lotus].


So stop bitching about the cars handling, learn to drive like
Clarke, explloit it's weaknesses, & go quick, despite the thing.

There is another side to all this.

Jack Brabham was, [& probably still is] a bum, the greatest bum that
ever sat in a racing car, [perhaps except for Shoey]. After learning
the basics of suspension set up from Ron Toreneau, he bacame the
greatest suspension tuner ever.

This beautiful story comes from some other mates, who were crewing
for the team at the time.

Jack had a yank driving for him at this time. He was no mug, & went
on to build some pretty good cars himself, but had best remain
nameless here. Lets call him Dan.


Now, Jack & Dan took a couple of new F1s out to a circuit to do some
testing. This was the first time out for the new seasons cars.

They both did a couple of laps, then checked the tyre temperatures,
across the tred, & adjusted cambers, & went back out. At this stage
Jack is doing 2 second above Lap Record times, [LR+2]. Dan is doing
something similar.

Jack did 2 laps, then adjusted the [anti]roll bars. Another couple,
& lowered the front ride height 1/2", another couple, & adjusted the
rear roll bar, & the tyre pressures again.

2 more laps, & he's doing LR-1 sec, & put the car in the trailer. 50
minutes later, after a lot laps & changes, Dan is still doing LR+2
sec, & they called him in, & went back to the factory. Dan gave his
crew some changes to do, & Jack gave the following instructions;

Lower the rear roll centre by 1/2", & fit a 1/8" thicker rear roll
bar, [the only changes requiring more than adjustment],

Lower the ride height 1/2"; Widen the front track 1/2" & the rear
1"; lengthen the wheel base 1"; fit 20 lb stiffer front springs, &
10 Lb softer rear springs; & add 1 degree castor on the rear.

They returned to testing the next day, when, after 5 laps, & a
couple of adjustments Jack was down to lap record -3 seconds. Dan
had now got to the old lap record.

Dan was called in, & given jacks gar, [after a change of seat
insert]. On his 3rd lap, dan was down to lap record -5 seconds.

So the moral is, If you can't learn to drive it, get a Jack Brabham
to set it up for you.

PS. I was 2 seconds quicker than Jack, in the same car at the same
track, just 5 months later. This proves that he was telling the
truth when he said that "I believe in winning, at the lowest speed
possible". I wonder if even he knew how fast he could go, if he
really tried.

Hasbeen

Hasbeen

PeterTR7V8
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Postby PeterTR7V8 » 28 Dec 2008 09:06

Great story as always. It is better to have been. The 2 stories have conflicting morals though. Clark's driving talent made setup superfluous whereas Brabham used technical know-how to unleash driver talent. I have little or none of either so I would rather trust a handling chart or whatever advice floats my way while my instinct comes in 3rd place.

I take your point about driving the car you have & not the one you wish it to be. My car on the track is not a precise instrument. The car sometimes breaks loose under extreme braking, one line feels just as quick as another & my lap times are identical whether I use 3rd or 4th thru the sweeper so I do wish it was a bit less wishy washy so I could better understand exactly what works & what doesn't. On the other hand, when it does get all swervy it usually makes amends by being quick to calm down & start pointing the right way with little effort on my part. This is preferable to an overly fussy car that throws me off the track when I make a mistake.

After 2 year's rounds of track days in the TR, which is a points earning series, I have come to the conclusion that my driving seems to have found its limit & isn't going to improve too much. I'm happy with the overall balance of the car so if I want to score more points I need more power, hence the new motor, & I need to get a set of club racing semi-slick tyres that most of my competitors are on. I'd hope that would give me the 4-5 seconds per lap (5% improvement) to be up with the hardcore in my class without having to reconfigure the suspension.

Considering that I get to enjoy my trip to/from the track in my TR & use it as a weekend tourer while most of the other drivers dawdle home dragging their cars on a trailor the TR does a good job with a good set of shocks, decent tyres on 15" rims & a camber kit.

I'd really like to get a Jim Clark to do 3 laps in my car so I know what is possible. Do you ever holiday here in NZ, Hasbeen?



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Beans
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Postby Beans » 28 Dec 2008 10:43

Good read indeed [;)]
There are (or have been) a few drivers that will do a lap record in a soap box.
But most will need a properly sorted car to be fast.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by PeterTR7V8</i>

...Considering that I get to enjoy my trip to/from the track in my TR & use it as a weekend tourer while most of the other drivers dawdle home dragging their cars on a trailor the TR does a good job with a good set of shocks, decent tyres on 15" rims & a camber kit...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That's exactly what it is all about in my humble opinion, enjoy driving the car [:)]
In my case I also like tinkering with it to see if there is room for improvement ...

<center>Image
<font color="blue"><i>1981 TR7 FHC Sprint (better known as 't Kreng)
1981 TR7 DHC (not very well known yet, but back on the road)
Also a 1980 TR7 DHC, 1980 TR7 DHC FI, 1981 TR7 FHC</font id="blue">
<font color="red">http://tr7beans.blogspot.com/</i></font id="red"></center>

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Postby Underdog » 28 Dec 2008 12:42

Good read and points taken. I was a huge fan of JC when I was a kid. Never realized he was challenged in the mechanical aspects. I think it comes down to some of us are good drivers and others are good mechanics. When you get someone that is a good driver and also a good mechanic (or at least understands the workings), you really have something.
FWIW, I enjoy modifications that improve any aspect of the cars operation. Unfortunately for me, the limiting factor is money!

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If women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy.

Hasbeen
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Postby Hasbeen » 28 Dec 2008 13:52

I think you have that all wrong Peter. I believe that a couple of
years of track days should be just enough for you to now start to
learn, & improve very rapidly. It takes a solid base to build race
driving on, & if you don't have Go-cart experience, that deosn't
come quickly.

I used to do a fair bit of suspension tuning, for other prople, back
then, but it takes a very confident, even cocky young bloke to drive
other peoples cars, at 9.5 tenths, to sort the handling. Any less &
you're kidding yourself, that you can get it right.

We mostly drove our cars to the track back then, if road going, it
bacame a problem, getting home, if you broke the car though.

We had a bit of fun, getting the original Holden Dealers Team cars
to Bathurst, for the 500 in 68.

David McKay ran that team, & we left his Sydney Scuderia Veloce
Motors in a large convoy. We had the 3 race cars, with their
numbers, & different coloured GT stripes, on each car, so the pit
crew could tell them apart, comming up to the pit, 2 Other Monaros,
as mobile spare parts banks, a truck load of parts, & gear, a 3
other Scuderia Motors cars.

It was a very sedate convoy, drivng through the mountains & one of
the other drivers, Paul Hawkins, [Hawkeye] an Ozie, who had made it
big in sports cars in europe, took off. It was legal to do over 100
MPH on the road, back then in Oz, but he did something to raise a
cop. They were every where, on the way to Bathurst, on race weekends.

The cop must have been a bit surprised to find how quickly his
quarry was disappearing into the distance, & it wasn't long before
Hawkeye could turn down a side road, & hide. The cop roared past,
then came slowly back, until yes, he found the rest of us, & a very
annoyed cop he was too.

The cop knew he'd been chasing a Holden Monaro, with a funny stripe
on it, & now he had 2 of them. But, of course, it couldn't have been
us, we'd been together from Sydney, 100 miles away. We knew nothing
about any other Monaros, with GT stripes, either.

He knew he'd been had, but he couldn't prove it, so after half an
hour we were on our way, but once we found Hawkeye, he found himself
in the passengers seat, & only got to drive a car on the track for
the rest of the weekend.

A day for my stories I'm afraid.

Hasbeen

jclay (RIP 2018)
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Postby jclay (RIP 2018) » 28 Dec 2008 14:50

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PeterTR7V8
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Postby PeterTR7V8 » 28 Dec 2008 21:04

Jclay, I'm not serious enough to fly all the way to the US to go to a Skip Barber course. That kind of money will buy me all the speed I need without having to worry about improving my ability. [:D]

Hasbeen, We are only too happy to draw all the stories you have out of you.

After the last run at the last meeting of the year I came off the track thinking that one of those laps was an absolute blinder only to find it was 1/2 a sec slower. I naturally felt a bit despondant & have lowered my expectations of getting more from the car by using such unreliable techniques like braking & steering. I've tried on a couple of occasions to get a more experienced driver in my car to compare abilities but circumstances have never allowed so far & there are no other TR7s competing that I can compare myself to. The next circuit event is the annual Triumphs at Taupo meeting in February which coughed up several 7s & 7V8s at the last event so I'm looking forward to that of course. I thought I had fastest Triumph lap of the day last time at Taupo but was beaten at the last moment by a 2.5PI Saloon driven by an experienced driver who had been helping to run the event all day & was given 1 run as we were winding down. It was enough to ensure my chicken count didn't match my egg tally. [:(!]

The Tasman Series was a golden age in down under racing. All our racing heritage seems to originate from that era. When it ended so did NZ drivers ability to step up to the international level & we have only quite recently got our foot in the door again with Dixon & now Hartley.

The marvellous youtube has a couple of the '68 Tasman races on file. Warwick Farm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNhYNzBd-t0 & Surfers Paradise http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFHS7_vfGUM. This one is a '65 race at Warwick Farm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYRXR_k8jpk with a better commentary. What was the difference between these races & the Gold Star Series, Hasbeen?

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Hasbeen
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Postby Hasbeen » 29 Dec 2008 15:37

Peter, there was not much difference between the Tasman, & the Gold
Star races, most of our F1s had come out for the Tasman, with the
owners hoping to sell them to us, after the series. There were just
less competitive car/driver combinations, & the cars were less
reliable, with local blokes on a pretty steep learning curve, about
the engines, & boxes.

When I was racing top stuff, in the mid to late 60s, was actually
not a great era, it was a transition period. We were going from the
no sponsership era, of the wealthy "gentleman" racer, with no
advertising allowed on cars, to the more professional driver.

We had had a golden era, with people like Patterson, Stilwell,
Davidson, Glass, Mc Kay, Scott, Youl, Mildren, Cusac, & a few
others, who made the transition from front to rear engine cars.
Those early rear engined cars, [Cooper, Lotus & Brabham] were pretty
agricultural things, quite slow, & easy to drive. In 1964 they were
still running on 4.5" front, & 5" wide rear wheels.

By 1968 we had wings, 16" wide wheels, with much better suspensions.
Not much change in tyres at that stage.
Lap times had dropped by about 12 seconds a lap at many circuits, &
the Gentleman driver had disappeared. The faster they got, around
corners, the harder they were to drive at the limit, & the more
deadly. That year there was just Kevin Bartlet, Leo Geoghegan, Johny
Harvey, & myself, with any real chance of winning the gold star.
Glen Scott, & Neil Allan had outside chances, so not too much
competition.

As an indication of the development, at Warwick Farm, in 67 my Oz F2
lap record was 1 36.4, driving a upgraded 1962 UK Brabham Formula
Junior.

Jim Clark's 1964 F1 lap record was only 1 38.6, so rapid had been
the development of racing cars. In just 3 years, my 1100cc pushrod
Ford powered car was over 2 seconds quicker, than the F1 of a
similar vintage, with Jim Clark driving it. In 68 we were doing
1 26s in the F1s.

Beans, the point I meant to make, about Jack B was his abillity to
change 6 things, at different ends of a car, all at once, & get it
right. The mortals I have worked with could work on one area, [say
spring rates], or one end at a time. Changing too many things at a
time was always a recipe for failure.

Hasbeen

Beans
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Postby Beans » 29 Dec 2008 17:24

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Hasbeen</i>

...A day for my stories I'm afraid...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I don't mind [;)]

As for your comment on changing the cars set-up.
I am one of those mere mortals who changes one thing on the car at a time. Then I try it out for a while and if I am satisfied with it I'll go for the next job. Biggest problem is that I have to do all the test driving on the public roads, so it takes a while before you get to the limit of the car safely ... (loot of roads lined with trees and deep ditches over here [B)])

<center>Image
<font color="blue"><i>1981 TR7 FHC Sprint (better known as 't Kreng)
1981 TR7 DHC (not very well known yet, but back on the road)
Also a 1980 TR7 DHC, 1980 TR7 DHC FI, 1981 TR7 FHC</font id="blue">
<font color="red">http://tr7beans.blogspot.com/</i></font id="red"></center>

PeterTR7V8
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Postby PeterTR7V8 » 29 Dec 2008 21:50

Beans, I'm in the same boat. The problem is though, sometimes that next thing we try would work better if the last thing was undone but I'm not about to take the blingy adjustable height struts off to see if changing the anti-roll bar reduces the understeer. A) it's too much work & B) I've sold half of the original gear to help finance the other bits I've bought.

I don't know too much but I do know that a car won't win a championship without a decent team manager behind it & I suspect my car is lacking one of those. But I reckon that after a month of being hounded to organise test sessions & to do more to find extra money the relationship would turn pretty septic. I'm in it for the enjoyment & part of that is mulling over what might work & finding out why it didn't.

Having the benefit of advice from an experienced driver who has some mechanical nous & tells a good yarn is also part of that enjoyment Mr West.

A good mate of mine dreamed of becoming a professional race driver. He did all the usual prerequisites in his youth doing well in Karts, Formula Ford etc. He spent time in the UK hanging around tracks trying to make his break happen but it all eluded him. These days he is a mechanic & a car restorer. He does something racy every year, usually the Targa NZ & lately he runs a car in the national production series but with a 2 man team & a limited budget he is never going to be more than just a participant. Every year we expect his passion to be overtaken by common sense but so far it hasn't been able to out-brake him. While I salute him & support him where possible I have to try to keep my own passions in perspective so I will always be a tinkerer.

Speaking of which I know a TR that has been waiting a month to have its wing mirror re-attached...

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