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Handling, & cornering power, different things

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Hasbeen
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Handling, & cornering power, different things

Postby Hasbeen » 11 Sep 2008 15:17

While posting on underdog's thread on handling improvements, I felt
one of my stories comming on. So, if your not interested in an old
bloke's waffle, read no further.

In the late 50s, or early 60s, [Its a long time back] a bloke by the
name of Brabham brought a new Cooper Climax, [next years F1
prototype] to Oz, to race here during the northen winter. It
actually was only a 2.2L, as Climax were still stretching the thing
to get 2.5L for F1.

Things were not going too well. The thing was very tail happy, &
Jack was having trouble getting power down, out of corners. A bunch
of them were standing, looking at the thing, [as if that would
help], when an old racing mate of Jacks, [Ron Tonareau, spelling?] came up.

The conversation went like this.

Ron. How's it going?
Jack. Not great.
Ron. Bit tail happy, is it?
Jack. What? Have you seen it?
Ron. No. I'm just looking at your rear end.
Jack. What do you mean?
Ron. Well, your rear roll centre must be 3 or 4 inches under ground.
Jack. Hay?
Ron. Your rear roll centre is at least 6 inches lower than your
front roll centre. Its got to be tail happy.

That night 2 very brave blokes cut the upper rear suspension
mountings off the brand new Cooper, & brazed on new ones in
different places.

The next day Jack knocked 4 seconds off his lap times, & a Cooper
Climax was on the way to be F1 world champion.

I loved racing, back then, when one smart bloke, with a hack saw, &
a few brazing rods could change racing car design for a decade or
more. All Brabhams were numbered BT something. That T was Ron, he
designed all of them.

Fast forward to 1967. A mate, & I were both racing BT 3 Brabhams.
Mine was FJ 3 62, with an 1100cc Cosworth engine, his FJ 12 62, with
a 1500cc Cosworth.

He had a bit of bad luck, & somehow rolled the thing, along the top
of a safty fence. He was knocked about quite a bit, the car quite a
lot, & his wife said she would divorce him, if he raced again.

When the car was almost repaired, he had a prospective buyer, who
wanted to see the car was just as quick, as it had been, before the
prang. Mike asked me to drive it in the last of our Gold Star races
[Oz drivers championship] in 67. As it was not sure it would be
ready, we had both his, & my car entered, with me as driver. I could
practice both, & drive my choice of either car.

Practice started very very wet. I took the 1500 out, but it was
un-driveable. I spun, or slid off 4 times in one 2.5 mile, very slow
lap. I took my 1100 out, & set 4th fastest time. There were 8 F1
behind me. it was that wet.

It dried out a bit, & I went out, & set 7Th fastest time, with the
1500. It was still bl@@dy awful at moderate speeds, but if you
remembered it was a Brabham, & drove it like a Brabham, It was OK.
You had to go into the corners fast enough to get the basics working
for you.

Between practice sessions we found,
The wheel base was 1.5" longer on the off side, than the near side.
The ride height was 2" too high, at the front, & 2.5" at the back.
The castors, & cambers were all over the place. We gave it the best
wheel alignment we could, in a grassy paddock, & set 5Th fastest
time in the second practice. I drove it in the race, & won its class
by half a lap.

With the lousy set up, the thing was handling like a pig, & wanted
to bite me, any chance I gave it, but it was still a Brabham. The
wheel base, roll centers, the front & rear track, & the spring rates
were all Brabham. So the handling was lousy, because it was not set
up as it should have been, but it had still the same cornering power
as my car, because all the basics were still right.

The same effect occurs with our 7, & 8. The 8, with a "competition"
suspension is at least 15% quicker than the 7, around corners, it
has much more cornering power. The 7 is much nicer to drive, all
day, on a long trip. Its handling is more fun, albeit at its lower
speed, & so forgiving that you can throw it around, with out it
wanting to bit you.

Unfortunately, many people can only afford, [or are only allowed]
one TR, so make sure you have it set up best for want you want.

Hasbeen

grndsm
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Postby grndsm » 11 Sep 2008 16:18

Great story, Hasbeen! Thanks for sharing!

What type of suspension was used in those old Brabhams?

Leon
'94 Eagle Talon AWD Turbo 613whp <powered by Mitsu 4G63T
'80 TR7 Spyder GS-T <undergoing Mitsu 4G63T transplant :)
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2472999

zekow1
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Postby zekow1 » 11 Sep 2008 16:27

Great story man
Thank you for sharing it with us.
Have Fun
Be safe
Zeke
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Periwinkle
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Postby Periwinkle » 11 Sep 2008 17:39

Thanks for the story Hasbeen. It was a nice treat.

Peri

Cobber
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Postby Cobber » 11 Sep 2008 22:22

Hasbeen, Ron Tauranac is the name you were looking for.
I couldn't figure out how to spell it either so I went and looked it up in one of my books.

80'Triumph TR7, 74'Jaguar XJ12 , 73'Land Rover (Ford 351. V8),
'89 Ford Fairlane
85'Alfa 90, 69'Ford F250.
76' Ford F100
I sold the '61 International AA120 to a mate.. he hasn't paid for it yet!
The Volvo 760 and one of the alfa 90's have passed on RIP! (Rust in Pieces!)

Hasbeen
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Postby Hasbeen » 12 Sep 2008 00:05

Leon, they had wide base twin wishbones on the front. Fully
adjustable, with rose joints, [uniballs] at every point.

The rear had a reverse wishbone, [point in on chassis] on the
bottom, & a single upper control arm on the top, with long [over 3
feet] unequal length radius rods, top & bottom. All adjustable, with
rose joints at every mounting point.

Coil over shocks were mounted diagonally from the outer lower
wishbone point to the chassis, out in the air flow.

Fully adjustable anti roll bars front & rear. It was quite easy to
make a real mess of setting them up, as every change, changed
something else as well.

The Brabham, & the Cooper had quite a bit of camber change with body
roll, [& the F1s of the day still had quite a bit], where the Lotus,
& Ferrari had very little camber change. You really needed the soft
side wall Dunlop racing tyres on the first 2, & stiff wall
Firestones on the other 2. There was a Goodyear racing tyre as well,
which was about half way between the other 2, but I never used them.

I once raced a Brabham, with Firestones, & it was deadful. I used to
have a photo of that car somewhere, with 4 of the 7 blocks of tread,
on the inside back wheel off the ground, going through a 110 MPH
corner.

Thanks Cobber, I couldn't find it without tearing the house to bits.

Hasbeen

PS, Its amazing to think just how little, most [almost all] of us
really knew about suspensions, & handling back then.

Today, any kid driving in our lower level "super cars" V8 touring
cars knows about roll centers, & can even adjust the rear centre
with a lever, during the race. Of course, most of them get it wrong,
but thats another story.

PPS. Has any thing ever been so misnamed as our V8s? Fun they may
be, but anything further from a SUPER car would be hard to find.

H

Underdog
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Postby Underdog » 12 Sep 2008 22:03

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Hasbeen</i>
]PPS. Has any thing ever been so misnamed as our V8s? Fun they may
be, but anything further from a SUPER car would be hard to find.

H
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Very True. But this is as close to a supercar as I'll ever be able to afford to get. Well..Unless I hit the Lotto! [:D]

72 MGB BRG
80 TR8 Persian Aqua
If women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy.

Hasbeen
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Postby Hasbeen » 12 Sep 2008 22:29

Sorry Underdog, misunderstanding. I did not make myself clear.

I was referring to the Oz Holden & Falcon, V8 racing cars, called V8
Supercars, by the promoter.

I believe a well done 8, or 7/V8 is probably closer to being
a "super car" than many of the $350,000+ cars supplied by the
prestige car makers.

Hasbeen

PeterTR7V8
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Postby PeterTR7V8 » 12 Sep 2008 22:48

The Aussie V8 Supercar series is a marketing exercise that happens to incorporate some motor racing. The idea of finding a sponsor to support your motor racing has been turned on its head by the Holden & Ford companies. It's amazing that the drivers take it so seriously.

Motorsport is ironically full of competitions where the best tool for the job rule has been forgotten about. There's also NASCAR, <i>any </i> kind of truck racing & of course, classic car racing by people like me who should be spending the money on hookers & holidays. I get more bang for my buck from driving out onto a track though.

So yes, the Aussie V8 'Supercar' series is the equivalent of an athletics competition for the fat & lame (no offense) but it is generally very entertaining.

It would be nice to go back in time and have motor racing like it was in the 60's as long as we could put up with all the casualties (I reckon one of the reason there were so many great names from then is because of the atrition rate in the driver ranks) but it isn't in our nature to stand still. Look at how much energy we put into improving our TRs for god's sake.

But in the days where you can't fire up an F1 car without 6 technicians & a computer it is a bit of light relief to see a family saloon knock a wing mirror of another family saloon while racing on a closed circuit with professional drivers.

************************************************************************

Is 'meat & 2 veg' appropriate rhyming slang for the TR7?

Chunk
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Postby Chunk » 12 Sep 2008 22:52

As a touring car, they are my favourite.
5 litre V8 engines, 600 plus bhp !
I think rallying has been a marketing exercise since the seventies.
I think it is always a challenge to make a road car into a racing car.
When i first had my TR7V8, it would understeer.
I reduced this by fitting softer front tyres and by reducing the weight of the front bumper by 50%.
My thicker (22mm) front roll bar has made a big difference, has reduced the body roll would you believe.
The strut brace makes the steering more accurate and positive.

1979 TR7V8 FHC 3.9 Litre.
280bhp and 13.31 secs standing quarter.
19 years of tinkering and tuning......So far!

PeterTR7V8
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Postby PeterTR7V8 » 13 Sep 2008 01:20

I'm a bit confused about the front anti-roll bar and understeer since I read how Buffum had his weakened to cure "inherent understeer" while others have stiffened theirs to do the same thing.

http://www.snowmoose.com/TR8/tr8comparison.pdf

Which is the way to go?

************************************************************************

Is 'meat & 2 veg' appropriate rhyming slang for the TR7?

Hasbeen
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Postby Hasbeen » 13 Sep 2008 03:07

Yes Peter, you are right to be confused.

A stiffer front roll bar will give you understeer, particularly in
long sweeping corners, BUT depending on your usage, this may not be
your point of interest.

Just as stiffer front shocks will hold the front outside corner of
the car up, [reducing body roll] as you turn in, so will the front
bar. This can/may be/perhaps, give the fromt more bite, momentarily,
& can/perhaps get the car into a good attitude for the corner, with
a little oversteer, [not tail slide], as you enter, with much less
body roll. It works more often in slower corners, say 50 to 80MPH

Now you have a balanced car, with no under, or oversteer, & throttle
controll of attitude. You must have enough power, of course. My 7s
stockish engine could never do it.

All this occurs at the point of turn in, &
only at close to the limit, with a sharp turn in. If you go in a bit
slower, & try to build speed with judicious use of power, the
understeer will be much worse than with a lighter bar. Hence, it's
not the best system for fast open public road work.

Its a bit like the old scandinavian flick, used by 2WD rally drivers
of old, to set the car up, on dirt roads, & like that it will only
work for some drivers, in some [fast or slow] corners. All this is
track only stuff, for road work I have reduced the understeer on my
daily driver 7, with better tyres on the front, than the back. Its
suspension is stock, with only a little lowering, & shocks set a bit
stiffer.

We have gone 30% stiffer, front & back, on the 8s anti roll bars,
[with springs, shocks dive kit etc.] but it does detract from its
road driving pleasure, quite a bit. If you're young enough, you
might like it, for daily driving, my son does, but he's a fully
fledged nut case.

Hasbeen

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Postby busheytrader » 13 Sep 2008 06:24

Hasbeen,

My Dad has always been the most non technically / mechanically minded person I know.

Will you and Mildred adopt me please?

Adam

Hasbeen
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Postby Hasbeen » 13 Sep 2008 12:07

Sorry Adam, you're a bit late, starting now.

My son was driving tractors, & paddock bashers, [old cars, semi
retired to paddock use, & abuse] before he was 12. By 14 he had
ported a couple of Renault cylinder heads, [well, that what we had
lying around], & had built an upgraded Ford Falcon by 16, ready for
when he got his licence.

At that age they pick it up by something like osmosis. I think they
surprise themselves with how much they know, & can do.

If ever he comes home, he might be able to teach me all this modern
stuff.

Hasbeen

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Postby Underdog » 14 Sep 2008 01:44

Hasbeen, that last post sort of remind me a bit of myself. I was building go-carts out of wood and old lawn mowers when I was 12. Never was interested in athletic sports. If it didn't have an engine, I could care less. My dad took me to the F1 races in 67 & 68 at Watkins Glen. I would have been 14-15 years old at the time. I would have loved to have got into racing as a youngster but my dad wouldn't hear of it. To him it was a waste of money and only the people selling parts were making anything. Who could have known motorsports would evolve into what it is today?
Love your stories about racing. Today it has become so high tech and comercialized that someone my age loses interest somewhat. It's great to hear how it was done when ingenuity combined with what was available produced results.

72 MGB BRG
80 TR8 Persian Aqua
If women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy.

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