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TR7 Suspension Tuning Article

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PeterTR7V8
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TR7 Suspension Tuning Article

Postby PeterTR7V8 » 01 Feb 2010 02:11

In 1978 from July-September Cars & Car Conversions magazine did a series of articles on improving the handling of the TR7. I found it very interesting & only slightly confusing so here it is:


<font face="Verdana">July 1978

To me the name Triumph remains obstinately synonymous with pleasant, if hairy, sports cars. Comfort was sacrificed for taut handling, good road manners, air-in-the-hair motoring and FUN.

The latest Triumph, born of BL parentage, is hardly a classic of the marque, and is really a GT car designed for American highways. Comfort is the keynote, which allied to flamboyant styling, sells the TR7 on the other side of the Atlantic.

For the UK, with our tight, twisty country lanes, we need a car with responsive handling to enable us to set good cross country journey times in safety. The TR7, despite having very good road holding capabilities, lacks the sort of handling that I look for in an enjoyable road car. This series of articles is intended to show what can be done to the marque in the first instance for road use, and secondly in different forms of competition, culminating in the specification of the factory prepared rally cars.

Those of you who read CCC regularly will know that last year I raced a 7 in Production Sports and had a lot of fun, having done quite a bit of development on how to get a standard specification car round a circuit as quickly as possible. The work that we did on that race car isn't really relevant to a road or rally car, as the objectives are to get the car as low as the rules permit, and as stiff as possible to reduce roll. The damper settings for racing produce a ride which gives me a headache after 50 miles, and the amount of understeer needed to make it come out of a bend quickly on full power would be lethal on a wet country lane. So for these articles it was back to the drawing board.

We borrowed a couple of TR7 road cars from Dunham and Haines who own SAH, the leading Triumph tuners. One was a standard demonstrator from their Luton distributors and the other was a mildly tweaked development car from SAH in Leighton Buzzard. The modifica¬tions to the latter amounted to a pair of 2 inch carbs, a free flow exhaust manifold and system and a road rally camshaft to make it quicker in a straight line, but the things in which I was more interested were the front spoiler to see whether it affected high speed handling by reducing front end lift; the Spax rear shock absorbers; Koni strut inserts; and stiffer front springs.

The Basic Car

As with all modern cars, the big compromise in design is cost, and so the TR7 suspension is very very simple with a minimal number of chassis attachment points. At the front is a MacPherson strut controlled at its base by quite a long strut control arm and held in a fore and aft direction by the anti-roll bar. Rubber, to give compliance, is fixed at the top of the strut on the inboard end of the TCA's between the TCA and the anti-roll bar, and where the anti-roll bar is fixed onto the front subframe.

In practice the amount of compliance in these rubbers is very little, giving basically good wheel control. However, it is all spoilt by the front sub-frame being mounted to the body on four horrible bungy rubbers.

The rear suspension is the now almost universal cheap and cheerful system of live axle, four trailing arms and coil springs. Its big advantage lies in the fact that all the suspension loads are fed into the bodyshell in front of the wheel arches, allowing the use of relatively thin gauge metal for the back of the bodyshell. This gives a weight saving and allows for good rear end deformability to comply with modern legislation. The side-to-side axle location is controlled by the top arms being angled ins at approximately 45 degrees, and this gives a rear roll centre at the point where the axis of the arms intercept. The coil springs are fitted between a cup on the chassis rail at their upper end and a small pan on the top of the lower arms, which are parallel. For NVH reasons (noise vibration and harshness) the rubbers at the ends of the suspension arms are big and bungy and allow plenty of axle movement which we will go into in greater detail later.

The geometry is such that the front roll centre with two people on board is at 3 1/2 inches above ground level and the rear roll centre is at a massive 13 1/2 inches above ground level. The spring to wheel ratios are 0.918 at the front and 0.765 at the rear which allied to the 88 front and 165 lb per inch rear spring rate gives wheel rate of 80 front and 125 rear.

If, by the way, you don't understand my terminology and such things as what a roll centre is, I suggest you go back to CCC of March 1 975 where it was explained in words of less than one syllable, or alternatively obtain a copy of J. R, Hartley's Question and Answer Book on Automobile Steering & Suspension, printed by Newnes Technical Books.

The high rear roll centre and relatively high rear wheel rate compared to the front would, at first sight, indicate that the car is a very heavy oversteerer. However, the front anti-roll bar is very stiff and the rear anti-roll bar, which goes between the bottom links is frightfully inefficient which brings a certain amount of balance back to the beast.

Testing

For our initial testing the Triple C/DAD entourage ambled through the Sussex countryside to Goodwood, a circuit which al¬though not used at all these days for racing and thus neither Gordon or myself had visited before, proved ideal as our test track. The road surface has presumably deteriorated quite a lot since the circuit was used for racing and had sufficient undulations to give us a good idea of the sort of ride we would get on a normal road. The parts we had available were three sets of Bilsteins with various settings from Leyland ST, the struts having an adjustable platform enabling us to play with front ride height, 50 per cent stiffer front springs, 240 lb per inch front and rear springs and a set of Koni strut inserts and rear shock absorbers. Knowing the TR7 I had also made up a pair of rose jointed top arms for the rear suspension and we had hard rubbers for the bottom rear arms and the front track control arms.

For the second part of our test we used our usual test facility where we were able to quantify the car's roadholding by driving round a 45 metre circle and from the time taken work out the average lateral G-force. In practice we found this to be an excellent test giving very sensible results and very similar results with different drivers.

The Standard Car

In recommended production trim our notes were as follows: understeers heavily on throttle. Tightening on lift off on high speed corners and moderate oversteer on tight corners. Docile behaviour displaying high G levels - 0.765 G. Feels very under-damped, even on the straights. Diagonal pitching behaviour "in corner" due to the lack of damping control when kicking off the bump stops. Over responsive around the straight ahead - ? rear end compliance.

Next month we will tell you how we sorted it all out.


Andy Dawson
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Postby PeterTR7V8 » 01 Feb 2010 02:19

<font face="Verdana">August 1978

Last month we looked at the Triumph TR7 from the sus¬pension theory angle, and I explained that we were going to turn an American's dream car, with its boulevard ride and loose handling, into the sort of car that I would enjoy driving.

We concluded with my initial notes from Goodwood which showed that there were three major areas for improvement: reducing the very heavy understeer, finding some dampers to reduce the wallow without making the ride harsh, and trying to make it less responsive to the steering about the straight ahead position. On our test track steering pad the lack of damping didn't affect the roadholding and gave a very high 0.765 G despite the fairly skinny 175/70 Goodyear G800+s tyres.

The easiest alteration to make to any car is to change the tyre pressures. Increasing the pressure reduces the slip angle by helping to brace the tread, but like almost everything, a gain in one area amounts to a loss in another, and with a tyre, an increase in pressure brings with it a harsher, noisier ride and less traction. The standard pressures are 24psi front and 28 rear, so to try to reduce some of the understeer we inflated the fronts up to 28.

The result was a much more balanced car as far as understeer was concerned, but one which was even more sensitive to the steering about the straight ahead position.

On the race car, we run the tyres at 40psi all round to give maximum roadholding and controllability, so it was worth trying the standard car with the tyres blown up to the same pressure. The roadholding leapt up to 0.791G, a 7% increase in cornering ability, something that we could also have obtained from wider wheels and tyres. The problem with wider wheels, however, would have been an increase in understeer, as the limit of roadholding is dictated by the front tyre tucking under due to a positive camber change. The standard tyres were wearing very heavily on the outside edge due to continuous very heavy cornering, but the standard suspension geometry indicates that this shouldn't normally be the case.

On the race car we have fitted harder front subframe mounting rubbers, and hard inner track control arm rubbers. Both sets of rubbers are available from Leyland ST under part numbers STR 0618 (2), STR 0619 (4), STR 0620 (2) and STR 0507 (2) and they transform the front end of a TR7. With them fitted the front tyres wear far more evenly as the subframe cannot move as much under cornering, which reduces the amount of positive camber in roll.

On the road car we found a similar improvement in tyre wear, although it wasn't as much as on the racer due to the road car rolling more. As with all compromises I expected the standard rubbers to give problems in other areas, but the only slight minus point proved to be a very small increase in engine vibration and road noise. I had presumed that the steering sensitivity would increase due to the increase in front end stiffness, but was pleasantly surprised to find that it was slightly better. For these tests and all the remaining ones we had returned to 28psi all round.

Increasing the driveability by reducing the understeer and stiffening up the front end amplified other weak links in the chain when we drove over less than perfect road surfaces, so it was time to look at the dampers and the reasons for the sensitivity about the straight ahead position.

The current trend in shock absorbers is to go to gas pressurised units, which, due to the gas reducing the aeration in the oil, have much better high speed and high temperature capabilities than non pressurised units. This allows them to have much lower low speed settings relative to high speed, and thus a much better ride quality.

The other advantage that some gas dampers have, such as Bilsteins, is that if the shock absorber is used as part of the mechanics of the suspension, as with a front strut, then the unit can be turned upside down and the bearings on which the suspension slides can be of a much larger diameter.

The amount of friction in the strut due to the side-load generated while cornering is relative to the angle of the strut and the size of the bearings. The ability of the wheel to follow the road surface and thus generate cornering forces is much reduced if the suspension binds up and stops functioning properly, thus it is very important for friction to be kept to a minimum.

Due to their ability to control wheels with minimal friction, Bilsteins have become almost an essential for competition saloons and quality road cars, thus it was natural for us to try them on the TR7 before any other make.

Leyland ST have three basic settings of struts and dampers available, all being designed for competition. My thoughts were that by using their tarmac rally settings we would have a good road setting. The biggest problem with the ST Bilsteins is that the front struts are pure competition, designed for roller bearing top mounts from the Rover 3500 instead of the normal TR7 units, and fitted with special spring platforms top and bottom for their competition springs. Our solution was to use Ford Cortina Mk 2 top spring seats and two of the Bilstein bottom seat locking rings to enable us to use standard springs.

The front strut settings available are 220/120, 250/150, and. 290/100, and the rear damper settings are 180/90, 180/110 and 250/120. Until very recently I thought that these figures related to the force needed to move the unit at one metre per second on rebound/bump. Having graphed some units I am now baffled as to exactly what the unit of force is, but whatever, the figures are proportional to the force needed to open and close the units.

With this in mind I chose the 290/100 struts and 180/90 rear dampers as my starting point; mainly due to their low bump settings but also because the front would be relatively over-damped on rebound which might reduce the sensitivity of the steering.

We initially fitted the Bilsteins at Goodwood, and after only half a mile it was obvious from both the driver and passenger seats that the car was transformed. We completed one lap and returned to check the ride heights. The back was slightly up due to the gas pressure, but we set the front at the standard height of 13.5 inches from the hub centre to the wheel arch, which should have helped to reduce the understeer.

The car was very driveable without any pitching in the corners, I could hold the tail out if I wanted or let it understeer very progressively. The ride was better than the standard car and it actually felt like a sports car; I was happy.

Perhaps the biggest change from fitting the Bilsteins was the lack of harshness under braking and the lack of diagonal pitching when pumping the throttle in a corner. The reason for this situation coming about is the short bump stop in the Bilstein compared to the very long external one on the standard struts which exaggerated the lack of standard damping, but more of that anon.

I ran the car with just the gas shocks and harder than standard front tyres for a couple of days as my "commuter-mobile" and even my wife Vicki noticed the improvement! The car didn't wander about the road on grooves made by heavy trucks as the standard one had done. It appeared that we had eradicated the majority of a TR7's vices in one easy manoeuvre.

The crunch came when we checked the G force that the car would pull. It was down to 0.735 G, so we went back to a standard set-up to check that something else hadn't changed.

The result was conclusive; the shocks that felt better with the seat of my pants gave lower roadholding. Don't ask me why, I can't understand it, but the proof was on the stop watch. Through a "snake" course, the car was more driveable with the gas, and it was almost a second faster, but on the steering pad it pulled a lower G force!

As I explained in the first article, we had a second road-going TR7 to play with, an SAH modified demonstrator. On the suspension side, it had Koni strut inserts and Spax rear dampers. For our first few laps of Goodwood it felt little better than the standard road car, other than for the more powerful engine. It still had the steering sensitivity about the straight ahead, it had the diagonal pitching, but was, at least, reasonably taut.

I reset the Spax two clicks harder and it was much better. The steering sensitivity was reduced, the pitching' was lessened but the ride had a harshness about it. Before I had a chance to get much further with this car it had to retire!

Back to the standard car and the Bilsteins. I felt happy with the shocker settings and from watching the car from the outside it was obvious that the next thing to try was some stiffer front springs. On the steering pad it was dipping at the front, indeed on the standard shocks the understeer was building up very rapidly, indicating that the bump stops were coming in.

We had some 50% stiffer springs with which SAH were experimenting, and we tried them with the Bilsteins, and the standard ride height. The result was idiot-proof handling in the "snake", the car tending to understeer all the time but very controllably. On the steering pad the G force went up from the original Bilstein level of 0.735 to 0.75.

The next thing for us to try was the works spring, 240lb per inch all round. Perhaps we should have waited and tried them with wider tyres, but it was worth a try to evaluate them for road use.

With just the fronts we had ultra dramatic understeer and a G level of under 0.7. With both front and rear the balance was better but still tending to understeer more than the standard road car with equalised tyre pressures. The G force was the same as for the 50% front springs, 0.75 G, but the ride was very harsh and the time through the snake was marginally slower.

From our testing with the Bilsteins I decided that it wasn't worth following up the stiffer springs other than for ultimate in competition, so it was back to other road car improvements.

We decided to try to improve on the best Bilstein specification, and so replaced them with a set of Konis from my old friends at Roadrunner. With the standard springs we pulled an instant 0.78 G; the balance of the car appeared to be similar to the Bilsteins, but, if anything, the ride was even better. The leak settings in the Konis were obviously well-set giving a good ride but also good wheel control. There was more road noise which seemed strange, but I didn't have any time to go back to the Bilsteins to confirm my impressions and I can only assume that the gas damps out road noise.

Back to the 50% uprated front springs and again we found an improvement of 0.015 G and better controllability through the snake. Indeed the time was over a second faster than the best Bilstein setting. As I explained before, the gas unit should have proved faster but for some reason they don't suit a road going TR7.

The only criticism I had about the Koni/50% stiffer front spring spec was that if I played with the throttle in the middle of a corner it would still pitch off the front bump stops. We removed them and ground the bottom half into a taper to reduce the suddenness with which they come in and also reduce the point at which they become noticeable. The result was a very controllable, progressive car, not too noisy although noisier than standard, and very enjoyable.

Thus my suggested spec for a road car is as follows: Koni strut inserts and rear dampers on minimum setting, 50% stiffer front springs, ground-down front bump stops, hard front subframe rubbers and TCA bushes, plus tyres at 28psi.

We tried various methods of reducing the steering sensitivity about the straight ahead position which I will go into next month, along with our results regarding competition settings.

Andy Dawson </font id="Verdana">

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Postby PeterTR7V8 » 01 Feb 2010 02:24

<font face="Verdana">September 1978

For the past couple of months I have looked at the Triumph TR7 as a road car, the way the majority of you will think about it, and how I feel it can be improved as an enjoyable means of transport.

There must, however, be a number of you who want to use your 7 for some form of competition and need to know how to set it up without going through the expensive business of experimentation.

There are two basic specifications, the one we use on our Prodsports cars, which with a few changes is what I would use for sprinting or hillclimbing with road cars, and the fully developed competition spec with considerable modifications carried out to the body/chassis unit.

It would have drained the CCC editorial budget to far too great an extent to have built a Group 4-type chassis for me to try, so I tried to arrange a five minute session with one of Tony Pond's works 7s. The answer was a very firm NO, so I will have to work from second hand information and the theory of how the car should work.

The specification that I described at the end of last month's article with 50% stiffer front springs, Konis, hard rubbers, etc., is a good starting point for any competition, with tyre pressures blown up to the 40 lb/sq in region to increase grip. For Production Sports Car racing we are not allowed to change springs and the ride quality doesn't really worry us, so the answer is to collapse the springs from one end to get the rate up, and lower the car to the minimum ground clearance of four inches.

In practice we have found that the springs which give good handling and quick lap times are American spec fronts, and latest production rears, reset to increase the rate as little as possible and thus give maximum traction in the corners.

Too high a rate at the back means that the car lifts the inside rear wheel and cannot put down any power. At the moment there are no limited slip diffs available for the standard TR7 axle (they would be illegal for Prodsports anyway) so the answer is to relocate as much weight as possible to increase traction. With our racing car we have put the fuel tank down in the spare wheel well, mounted the fire extinguisher bottle behind the right hand rear wheel and sat the driver as low as possible.

If you want to compete with the standard fuel system then you come across an awkward compromise. The car handles better with an empty fuel tank, but it gets fuel surge when the tank is less than a quarter full.

On most UK circuits the surge is no problem as the length of the fuel line is sufficient to get the car through the bends and onto the next straight before the air gets to the carbs; Gerards at Mallory and the long right-hander at Goodwood are the only 'problem' corners.

The other problem with the fuel system doesn't affect the handling but is still worth mentioning. On long right-handers the front carb float chamber cuts off and the rear one floods, spilling fuel out over the coil which can produce quite exciting results. The answer is to fit float chamber tops from a 1275 Mini which will cut-off under heavy braking, flood slightly under full acceleration (when it doesn't matter) and be unaffected by cornering forces, as the floats are hinged from the rear.

So, having told you how to make a TR7 as fast as our Prodsports car, what else can we do for events without such strict regulations? Wider wheels are an obvious first choice with wide low profile tyres. The standard arches will accept 7inch rims with 225/55 tyres, and these must be just about the ultimate for occasional competition use. To make sure that the tyres work properly there are a couple of other mods which need to be made. The most important is to redrill the front suspension crossmember to give negative camber on the front wheels and keep the wide tyres flat to the road under heavy cornering. From experience I can recommend moving the TCA inner bolt holes outwards and slightly upwards by exactly 3/8 inch, but remember to fill-in the original hole to stop the bolt pushing through from one hole to the other.

The second modification is a seat-of-the-pants thing. From my Prodsports experience I know that the rear top arms bind-up under very heavy cornering, and the back end tends to be thrown about over bumps. We tried some top arms with rose joints at the ends; it totally transformed the rear suspension but transmitted and magnified the diff whine to unacceptable proportions. The directional instability that I complained of disappeared completely.

The top arms control the lateral location of the axle by being angled inwards at 45°, and the relatively soft rubber bushes in the arms allow the axle quite a bit of freedom. Under heavy cornering, the axle moves across towards the outside of the corner due to the high rear roll centre, and towards the inside due to the cornering force on the axle. The result is that in a pronounced S bend the axle comes across the car before the car can roll back, and this gives the rear of the machine a pendulum effect which throws the tail outwards. With rose-jointed arms the axle can only move a small amount sideways without rolling, and thus, there is far less of a pendulum/whiplash effect. Also the axle tends to steer the car less, which gives an improvement in directional stability.

If we were allowed to use rose-jointed top arms for Prodsports, the lap times would hardly change but the driver would have a much easier time in bumpy corners or in an S situation.

For occasional competition use, I would suggest the use top arms with rose joints on the axle end, and the standard rubber bush at the chassis end keep down the noise.

Pure Competition

Building any car as a pure competition vehicle is a very different kettle of fish to screwing together a nice road car or occasional competition car. TR7 is no exception; indeed with the available homologation engines and suspension options it is almost more of a job than with most of its opposition.

The first thing that you find that the Safety Devices roll cage is far from easy to fit. Due to various reasons which will become obvious to you in a minute, the main feet of the roll hoop sit on 10swg box section which have to be welded-in, and the front legs of the cage pass down through the dashboard which has to be assembled round it. Before Safety Devices blast my head off, I might that the cage is very well made and nicely unobtrusive.

The reason for the box sections at the feet of the cage is the way Leyland ST locate back axle for competition. Rose-jointed top arms are all very well, but as soon as the engine is given some real power, either 16-valve or V8 form, the back axle begins to tramp under heavy acceleration. In order locate the axle better we would have to fit spherical bearings into the bottom arms, which would mean that the axle tube becomes an anti-roll bar - hardly the weakest of anti-roll bars. Thus Leyland ST were faced with a problem; lots of rubber and lots of tramp, some rubber and some tramp or a redesign of the rear suspension.

The solution was quite simple - turn the top arms through 45° so that they become trailing radius arms and locate the axle laterally with a Panhard Rod. Not only does this solution kill the tramp problems but it also lowers the rear roll centre to just below the centre of the axle and overcomes the problems with the high roll centre.

In order to comply with homologation requirements, ST manufactured a vast number of what they call "Increased lateral Location Kits" which are sold under the part no. STN 0104. The kit consists of a Panhard Rod with body end and axle and mounting brackets, a pair of top arms with spherical bearings in them, axle brackets, and box sections to be fitted into the rear bulkhead beside the feet of the roll cage which locate on the front of the radius arms. Also for use with this kit are bottom arms with spherical bearings and the spring pan lowered 1 inch (STR 0431).

The result of fitting the five link location kit is, apparently a much improved back end. I can't report how good it is, not having been able to borrow an appropriate car, only that the problem with the factory cars now appears to reside at the front end. Certainly the amount of mods that they are undertaking on the front suspension would appear to indicate that.

To my knowledge, ST redrill the crossmember even further out than I suggested before, although there must be other modifications to go with this as the set-up would give very bad bump steer on its own. They alter the angle of the front struts relative to the stub axle, utilise what look like Ford top mounts for the struts, pull the anti-roll bar forward to increase the caster, and no doubt have various other mods.

For lesser mortals I can only suggest the use of the "official" front end with 240/140 springs for the loose and 280/134 springs for tarmac; the modifications that I have already described, plus increasing the caster to increase stability. ST market front anti-roll bar spacers which lower the mountings on the subframe to reduce the amount of dive under braking, but it is possible to move the pick-up points forward as well to give increased caster.

What I would recommend. is that if you are serious enough to get round to fitting an "Increased lateral Location Kit" then you should pester ST to get the correct information as to exactly what spec front end you should or shouldn't have, and then go on a Tony Pond course to improve your reactions and car control.

To sum it all up, we 'have an excellent basis for an enjoyable fast road car with the TR7, a car which in standard form has excellent road holding but sloppy handling. Stiffen it up with Konis, 50% stiffer front springs and some hard rubbers and it becomes a very pleasant car which Leyland could be proud of, as the standard of road holding and handling that it then possesses can only be compared with the very best that Italy can produce.

My thanks to the people that helped us with the project, especially Dunham & Haines for the standard car and Big B for being frightened every time I got it more than 45° to the direction of travel.

Andy Dawson </font id="Verdana">

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Postby Hasbeen » 01 Feb 2010 03:54

Great stuff Peter. A really interesting series, & most of it makes
sense.

I have a bit of difficulty with his statment, early in the first
post, regarding understeer. His suggestion that to be quick, a
competition car must have so much understeer, it would be
dangerous, on the road, in the wet, is a bit strange to me.

I spent quite some time, getting rid of most of the understeer in
the Brabham Repco F1, as I found it limited the amount of power you
could feed in, comming out of medium/fast cormers, particularly.

With the understeer your power application was limited by how wide
the front pushed, as it was increased. With a little over steer, I
found you could get to near full throttle, if fed, rather than
banged on.

I guess it depends on your style. Greg Cusac, who drove it before me
was probably power sliding through slow/medium corners. By the time
I drove it, you couldn't get a hundred mile race out of the back
tyres, if you drove like that, on the softer rubber.

Hasbeen

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Postby PeterTR7V8 » 01 Feb 2010 09:49

Where I got a bit confused is when he talks about tyre pressures. He says more pressure reduces traction but also reduces understeer. Is he saying that the extra pressure in the front reduces the roll-under on hard cornering which compensates for the fact that the tyre has a smaller footprint when over inflated? It seems to me that you would want higher pressure in the front & lower in the back but in the September article he talks about 40psi all round to increase grip. Does having the K-Mac kit to give the car 2-3 deg negative camber take the roll-under out of the equation?

My spring setup is as he describes with 155lb front & 200lb rear. With 205/50R15 road tyres I get about 1.1Gs on the track & 1.3Gs with Toyo 888s & it is reasonably balanced but with a bit of understeer. I like the sound of upgrading the subframe & rose-jointing the axle ends of the rear top arms as well as adding a panhard or even a watts link. I like the way my car handles but it does leap off bumps & camber changes in corners in a way that makes me wonder if I put all the wheels nuts on tight. Those 3 mods might be the answer to that.

Image
But baby, I thought I <i>was</i> doing my best.

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Postby Hasbeen » 01 Feb 2010 12:24

Don't forget when it was written, Peter. Tyres back in the late 70s,
were still a bit like we had in the 60s. We used to run up to 45psi
in things like my Morgan +4, & the MGs, Sprites & the like back
then. In the early 60s, F1s were still racing on 6 inch rims.

It was only later really wide stuff came in, mid 60s. The 67 F1
Brabham, uprated to 68 Brabham had over square wheels on the back.
14" diameter, & 16" wide. Modern tyre construction started then, &
we ran 18psi in the back.

I don't think the wheels allowed in his production racing would have
allowed him modern tyres that you can use, so I don't think you can
use too much of his tyre story.

You should be reading the tyre temperatute, across your tyres,
immediately after a couple of hard laps, & adjusting pressures, &
cambers to get an even temperature spread.

His suspension stuff should still be mostly valid, at least untill
you have that big increase in horse power you are dreaming about.
Actually, as you want both road & track usage, his suspension stuff
should suit both you, & most of us, with what we do with our cars.

Hasbeen

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Postby Bobbieslandy » 01 Feb 2010 15:51

"The standard arches will accept 7inch rims with 225/55 tyres" I thought the absolute max was 6.5" on the back?

Crracking find Peter, so good in fact i'm going to print it off!

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Postby Beans » 01 Feb 2010 16:48

I've got 7J/15 rims with 205/50 tyres on 't Kreng (with standard arches).
Is a tight fit, touching very very lightly when going fully laden and a bit to fast over speed bumps.

On the other hand the 195/55 tyres (also on 7J/15 rims) <u>I used on the DHC</u> touch on speed bumps without being fully laden ... (<u>edit</u>)

Oh ... and Peter, thx for posting the article.
I'll buy you a beer for that when you come over to the NL [:D]

<center>Image
<font color="blue"><i>1980 TR7 DHC (my first car, currently being restored)
1981 TR7 FHC Sprint (better known as 't Kreng)</font id="blue">
<b>[url="http://www.tr7beans.blogspot.com/"]<u><b><font size="2"><font color="red">My Weblog</font id="red"></font id="size2"></b></u>[/url]</b></i></center>

Triumph TR7V8 coupé
Rust Hunter
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Postby Triumph TR7V8 coupé » 02 Feb 2010 12:41

[quote]<i>Originally posted by Bobbieslandy</i>

"The standard arches will accept 7inch rims with 225/55 tyres" I thought the absolute max was 6.5" on the back?


Hello boys and girls,

I’ve got 195/50 tires on 7x15 wheels on my car and they used to touch the rear arches with the original springs mounted.
I have the lowered and up rated springs on the car now and I don’t think the tires will touch the arches anymore. But just to be sure they wont damage the Rimmer body kit I’m going to lower the rear axle bump stop. This way the axle will touch the bump stop before the wheels touch the arches.
One of these days I’m going to change the tires by larger ones like 205/50 (and maybe 225/50 in the rear if they fit the 7â€￾ wheel?) just to fill the larger arches.
Any suggestions for a good tire that holds the road but doesn’t wear to quick (daily use)?
I haven’t driven the car for a single meter since I’ve done all the modifications like the engine and suspension and I’m getting impatient to know the result.
I hope to have the car back on the road within three months but I could be to optimistic.

Greetings, J.
http://triumphtr7v8coupe.blogspot.com/

PeterTR7V8
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Postby PeterTR7V8 » 02 Feb 2010 20:28

Different tyres have different wall profiles ie, some bulge out a bit more.

I have Toyo Proxes 225/50 on the back that had chronic tyre rub even with rolled up arches. New springs & bushes fixed that problem.

TSI have the poly subframe bushes listed at $US29 for a set. Compared to the £40 being asked by robsport this is extremely cheap. Has anyone bought the TSI bushes?

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But baby, I thought I <i>was</i> doing my best.

Triumph TR7V8 coupé
Rust Hunter
Posts: 213
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Postby Triumph TR7V8 coupé » 05 Feb 2010 07:52

[quote]<i>Originally posted by PeterTR7V8</i>
I have Toyo Proxes 225/50 on the back that had chronic tyre rub even with rolled up arches. New springs & bushes fixed that problem.

Hello Peter,
225/50, which rims do you use 7" or 8"?
What do you have on the front?

Greetings, J.

PeterTR7V8
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Postby PeterTR7V8 » 05 Feb 2010 09:39

15x7 rims. The front tyres are Bridgestone Potenza 205s. 225s wouldn't fit the front, they fouled the back of the wheel arch when turning. The main reason they are different brands is because I bought them at different times.

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300bhpton
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Postby 300bhpton » 05 Feb 2010 09:48

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bobbieslandy</i>

"The standard arches will accept 7inch rims with 225/55 tyres" I thought the absolute max was 6.5" on the back?

Crracking find Peter, so good in fact i'm going to print it off!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I run 225/50R15's on some MGF 15x6.5. Never know it ir noticed it to rub at all. Also got KYB's on the back and S&S's 1" lower 200lb (or whatever they are) springs.

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Beans
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Postby Beans » 05 Feb 2010 16:30

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by 300bhpton</i>

... I run 225/50R15's on some MGF 15x6.5. ...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
ET of the MGF wheel is different, narrowing the track, and thus creating more room on the outside ...

<center>Image
<font color="blue"><i>1980 TR7 DHC (my first car, currently being restored)
1981 TR7 FHC Sprint (better known as 't Kreng)</font id="blue">
<b>[url="http://www.tr7beans.blogspot.com/"]<u><b><font size="2"><font color="red">My Weblog</font id="red"></font id="size2"></b></u>[/url]</b></i></center>

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