Anonymous

Suspension mods

The all purpose forum for any TR7/8 related topics.
Vegas_M
Swagester
Posts: 504
Joined: 25 May 2005 03:02
Location: Canada
Contact:

Suspension mods

Postby Vegas_M » 26 Jan 2010 21:57

I was looking for suspension mods and came across Leon's mitsubishi 4G63 conversion.
(http://www.forum.triumphtr7.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1138 and http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2472999/3)

Image

I checked out his front suspension changes (Miata spring kit) but thought the springs were awful short. I emailed Leon to find out how well they performed and what spring rate he chose, but haven't heard back yet.

Today I looked into Miata spring kits like his and they all appear to be about 5.5 - 6" long, with about 3" of travel to coil bind.

I have a spare set of strut inserts that I plan on using when I do my v8 engine change over later this spring and measured their travel. They have a good 6" from full extension to full compression. Take away an inch for the bump stop, and that's still about 5" of possible travel.

Other people who have done change over to narrow springs seem to have used much longer ones. For instance, Beans suspension (Image)

So, does anyone know how much travel we should have with stock front suspension, and how much (actually, how little) is acceptable with higher rate springs?

Thanks.

Martin

Beans
TRemendous
Posts: 7823
Joined: 15 Mar 2006 19:29
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Postby Beans » 27 Jan 2010 17:06

Depends mainly on the following variables;
The spring rates;
The cars loaded weight;
Avarage road surface;
Use of the car/the driver [:p]

<center>Image
<font color="blue"><i>1980 TR7 DHC (my first car, currently being restored)
1981 TR7 FHC Sprint (better known as 't Kreng)</font id="blue">
<b>[url="http://www.tr7beans.blogspot.com/"]<u><b><font size="2"><font color="red">My Weblog</font id="red"></font id="size2"></b></u>[/url]</b></i></center>

FI Spyder
TRemendous
Posts: 8920
Joined: 03 Jul 2006 19:54
Location: Canada

Postby FI Spyder » 27 Jan 2010 17:53

Seems to me I read somewhere the stock suspension has a very long suspension travel of 8". Don't know if that was front or back or both.



TR7 Spider - 1978 Spifire - 1976 Spitfire - 1988 Tercel 4X4 - Kali on Integra - 1991 Integra
Image

Beans
TRemendous
Posts: 7823
Joined: 15 Mar 2006 19:29
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Postby Beans » 27 Jan 2010 19:17

If I remember correctly that is the total amount of front suspension travel.
But I think only the ingoing stroke is of any relevance here, should be somewhere between 4" and 5" on a standard TR7 I guess.

At the rear with slightly lowered springs (190 lbs) there is an ingoing stroke of ± 110 mm...

Image

<center>Image
<font color="blue"><i>1980 TR7 DHC (my first car, currently being restored)
1981 TR7 FHC Sprint (better known as 't Kreng)</font id="blue">
<b>[url="http://www.tr7beans.blogspot.com/"]<u><b><font size="2"><font color="red">My Weblog</font id="red"></font id="size2"></b></u>[/url]</b></i></center>

willywonka
Wedge Pilot
Posts: 258
Joined: 23 Mar 2009 12:10
Location: Abercanaid

Postby willywonka » 27 Jan 2010 21:38

Anyone know what the bearing number for the small narrow roller bearings that are used, not the Sierra type, and where can you source these and the nylon / PTFE bush from?



All the Gear, no idea

busheytrader
TRemendous
Posts: 3145
Joined: 14 Oct 2007 17:49
Location: United Kingdom
Contact:

Postby busheytrader » 28 Jan 2010 07:16

[quote]<i>Originally posted by FI Spyder</i>

Seems to me I read somewhere the stock suspension has a very long suspension travel of 8". Don't know if that was front or back or both.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That'll be the rear. The front is much less, partly due to the large std bump stops. I have the original uprated TriumphTune poly cone stops on mine which are about half the length. They are more progressive when bottoming out since the cone spreads at impact.

Image

TR7 V8 DHC Jaguar Solent Blue. 9.35cr Range Rover V8, Holley 390cfm, JWR Dual Port, 214 Cam, Lumention, Tubular Manifolds, S/S Single Pipe Exh, 3.08 Rear, 200lb Spax & PolyBushes all round, Anti- Dive, Strut-Top Roller Bearings, Capri Vented Discs & Calipers, Braided Hoses, 4 Speed Rear Cylinders, Uprated Master Cylinder & Servo, AT 5 Spokes and Cruise Lights, S/S Heater Pipes, Replacement Fuel Tank. No Door Stickers. Mine since July 1986, V8 from 1991

Beans
TRemendous
Posts: 7823
Joined: 15 Mar 2006 19:29
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Postby Beans » 28 Jan 2010 16:42

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by busheytrader</i>

The front is much less, partly due to the large std bump stops ... <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Unless the car has been driven very sensible, these will be long gone [:D]

<center>Image
<font color="blue"><i>1980 TR7 DHC (my first car, currently being restored)
1981 TR7 FHC Sprint (better known as 't Kreng)</font id="blue">
<b>[url="http://www.tr7beans.blogspot.com/"]<u><b><font size="2"><font color="red">My Weblog</font id="red"></font id="size2"></b></u>[/url]</b></i></center>

Vegas_M
Swagester
Posts: 504
Joined: 25 May 2005 03:02
Location: Canada
Contact:

Postby Vegas_M » 29 Jan 2010 02:28

Well, not getting the kind of info I was hoping for, and having this mind that when I don't understand something, I study it to death, 'till I figure it out. So, I've been doing some research into the whole suspension thingie...

Here is some of what I've discovered..

First thing I didn't understand about suspension was this "Spring Rate" thingie. Oh I understood that a 200lb spring meant that for every 200lb loaded onto the spring, it compressed by 1 inch. But, why could two very different looking springs have the same spring rate, while two almost identical springs have very different spring rates?

Well it turns out that the Spring Rate can be calculated by the following formula:

Spring Rate (lbs/in) = (modulus of spring steel x wire diameter^2) / ( 8 x number of active coils x mean coil diameter^3)

Where:
1. The modulus of spring steel = 11250000 lbs/sq.in.
2. The ^ means "raised to the power of" the following number. (^2 = sq., ^3 = cubed, etc.)
3. Active coils means ones that can move, eliminating much of the top and bottom coils. Usually is a fractional number (eg: 4.3, 5.25, etc.)
4. Mean coil diameter is the diameter along the centreline of the coil. Inside Diameter(ID) plus wire diameter or Outside Diameter(OD) minus wire diameter.

Note, the length of the spring has nothing to do with the Spring Rate calculation. It does however impact two aspects of the suspension, the distance to coil bind (coils touching each other), and preload. I'll talk about preload later. And if your suspension coil binds, you have serious suspension design or other problems

So, I promptly went out the garage and measured my TR7 springs (inches) and plugged them in with the values I measured.

            #     wire     coil   spring
          coils   dia     ID     rate 
Front   5.5    0.5    Â Â Â Â 5      175
Rear    4.5   0.465     5      157

Hmmm, that's strange. The rear is fairly close to the stated stock rate. What's going on with the front? Fought with that for a few days messing around with formulae, straining my mind, and just doing a lot of soul searching. Then I suddenly remembered that I had installed a set of TSI aftermarket springs 5 or 6 years ago. Duh! Still had a piece of the old springs in a drawer somewhere. Found and measured its diameter, and using the same number of the rest, plugged it in and got 91 lbs/in. Hey, this thing actually seems to work.

So then I wanted to try some others. I bought a cheap eBay Miata coilover lowering kit similar to Leon's conversion.
Image
I didn't know what the rates were (no one in the street rod crowd seems to publish them, strange), but I knew I could use the spring perches, if nothing else. Here is what I calculated:

           #     wire    coil   spring
         coils   dia     ID     rate 
Front   4     0.435    2.5     498
Rear    4     0.390    2.5     337

Afterwards I realized the numbers printed on each spring included the spring rates- 500lbs & 350lbs. Cool, but way too short and stiff for me to use for general road use.
FYI - Spring specs use either a metric or US code, in the format of "FreeLength.InnerDiameter.SpringRate".
So, metric 200.64.67 = US 0700.250.0375 Which means a spring that is 7" (200 mm) Long, 2.5" (64mm) ID, with a 375 lb/in (67N/mm) Spring Rate. Amazing what you can learn on the internet on a cold winter night.

Then I checked into other coilover spring types.

Image
Dual-rate: Basically two springs, one short soft spring and one longer firm spring with a ring to hold them aligned. Starts off with soft suspension for regular road use, but if you start to push it, the soft ones bottom out and the firmer ones take over, giving you stiffer suspension.

Image
Progressive: A single rate spring, wound so that about 1/4 to 1/3 of the coils are progressively closer together than the rest. As the spring compresses, the narrow gaps close first, effectively reducing the number of coils, thereby increasing the effective spring rate. Performs similar to the dual-rate (soft to stiff), but much more gradual and no harsh change over.

Image
Beehive: This is a bit similar to the Progressive, but allows for a much greater range of suspension progression. Rather than gradually reducing the spacing of the coils, a beehive spring gradually reduces the diameter of the coils. Some even do both. Jeeze, wouldn't want to try to figure out how they calculate the spring rates on them!

I think that's enough for tonite. Tomorrow’s lesson, Spring Preload and what it means to you....

Martin

FI Spyder
TRemendous
Posts: 8920
Joined: 03 Jul 2006 19:54
Location: Canada

Postby FI Spyder » 29 Jan 2010 03:14

Good lesson. Wouldn't mind a set of progressives. That's what the rallye cars used. Also Bilstein shocks but it seems they don't make them any more (for Triumph). Guess have to go for Koni....sigh.[:)]



TR7 Spider - 1978 Spifire - 1976 Spitfire - 1988 Tercel 4X4 - Kali on Integra - 1991 Integra
Image

Marko
Wedgista
Posts: 1018
Joined: 20 Aug 2006 16:53
Location: Croatia
Contact:

Postby Marko » 29 Jan 2010 09:17

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Vegas_M</i>


Image
Dual-rate: Basically two springs, one short soft spring and one longer firm spring with a ring to hold them aligned. Starts off with soft suspension for regular road use, but if you start to push it, the soft ones bottom out and the firmer ones take over, giving you stiffer suspension.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

emmm the little one is already bottomed out when the weight of the car is on it , that smaller spring was first used on lowered race cars to keep the big spring in place and wheel on the road on full droop(outside the regular suspension travel), it doesn't change the overall spring stiffness because its just to weak to be an influence.

most of the cheap coilover producers just slap them on because the more expensive products have them.

Beans
TRemendous
Posts: 7823
Joined: 15 Mar 2006 19:29
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Postby Beans » 29 Jan 2010 17:00

Marko's right, short springs only there to keep tension in the suspension on full droop.
As for spring rates, actual spring rate can be something rather different from the effective spring rate ...

<center>Image
<font color="blue"><i>1980 TR7 DHC (my first car, currently being restored)
1981 TR7 FHC Sprint (better known as 't Kreng)</font id="blue">
<b>[url="http://www.tr7beans.blogspot.com/"]<u><b><font size="2"><font color="red">My Weblog</font id="red"></font id="size2"></b></u>[/url]</b></i></center>

Marko
Wedgista
Posts: 1018
Joined: 20 Aug 2006 16:53
Location: Croatia
Contact:

Postby Marko » 29 Jan 2010 20:01

if you're afraid of car bottoming out on a short spring try to get a bump stop or carve one to your needs, as you can exponentially increase the spring rate as the bump stop gets compressed, saving the shock from damage on large bumps and potholes , and still having a smooth ride on normal roads

Beans
TRemendous
Posts: 7823
Joined: 15 Mar 2006 19:29
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Postby Beans » 29 Jan 2010 23:59

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by FI Spyder</i>

... Guess have to go for Koni....sigh. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Nothing wrong with that, still good quality ...
There's even a Koni connection here ...

Image

Helper spring to prevent the rear coilover's spring to get free from it's seat is clearly visible

Sigh indeed for the bank account [:I]
... and still haven't found time to fit the rears.

<center>Image
<font color="blue"><i>1980 TR7 DHC (my first car, currently being restored)
1981 TR7 FHC Sprint (better known as 't Kreng)</font id="blue">
<b>[url="http://www.tr7beans.blogspot.com/"]<u><b><font size="2"><font color="red">My Weblog</font id="red"></font id="size2"></b></u>[/url]</b></i></center>

Vegas_M
Swagester
Posts: 504
Joined: 25 May 2005 03:02
Location: Canada
Contact:

Postby Vegas_M » 30 Jan 2010 15:10

Well it's a sunny Saturday morning and -20c outside; and my garage is unheated, so lots of time to write more... [:D]

Image
Re: "the little one is already bottomed out when the weight of the car is on it"

Well, yes and no...
All depends on the design of the little spring and the weight of the car. In race cars and early designs, as you said, it was very weak and only to keep the spring in place. The ones that come with this eBay kit are however about 150lb springs. <i>(My scientific investigation? = I went to the dealer yesterday, pulled one of the smaller springs from his kit. Stood on it (I weigh ~200lb) and they measured the deflection.)</i> [:D] The bigger ones are 8N/mm or 450lb/in springs.

Our cars weigh about 2400 lbs with a about a 55/45 weight split. Taking off say 100lb per side for unsprung weight (wheel, tire & air, and strut/hub assembly). (Yes I know the rear end has a lot more unsprung weight than the front, but this only approximate anyhow.) This means each front strut needs to support about 550lbs at rest ((2400-400) x 0.55 / 2). Each of the little springs is 4.5" long and will be compressed, at rest, about 3.5", giving you another whole inch of soft suspension travel. If I was to use it, that is... [;)]


This brings up two other subjects, preload and effective rate <i>(Thank you for reminding me Beans)</i>.

Preload = Spring Rate x (the free length of the spring - the mounted length of the spring)
So:
lb/in   FL     ML     Preload
200lb  12"    10"    400lb

This means that given the same corner weight as before (550lb) the spring will compress another 3/4" when the weight of the car is put on it. So this is why we have to pre-compress springs to mount them onto the strut...high static load and soft ride. It is also why the stock rear springs are a higher rate than the fronts - they have no preload so need to compress to hold up the weight of the car.

OK, so on to the next topic, "effective spring rate".

All of the above "theoretical calculations" work when springs are mounted in a vertical position and the weight on them is acting directly over the centre of the spring. That's not how our suspension works, however.

In the front, the struts are mounted at an angle.
Image

This reduces the spring's carrying capacity (basic high school trigonometry). However, as the suspension is compressed, the angle decreases, improving the effective spring weight.
Image

There are lots of other factors, but that's the basic. Then we get into how your shock impacts the suspension, but I'll leave that for someone else....

Much of the above info and a lot more stuff is available at:
http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/tech_index.html
and
http://www.carbibles.com/suspension_bible.html


Martin

Marko
Wedgista
Posts: 1018
Joined: 20 Aug 2006 16:53
Location: Croatia
Contact:

Postby Marko » 30 Jan 2010 18:48

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Vegas_M</i>


Our cars weigh about 2400 lbs with a about a 55/45 weight split. Taking off say 100lb per side for unsprung weight (wheel, tire & air, and strut/hub assembly). (Yes I know the rear end has a lot more unsprung weight than the front, but this only approximate anyhow.) This means each front strut needs to support about 550lbs at rest ((2400-400) x 0.55 / 2). Each of the little springs is 4.5" long and will be compressed, at rest, about 3.5", giving you another whole inch of soft suspension travel. If I was to use it, that is... [;)]

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

in that case you will have a progressive overall spring stiffness curve lower than stiffness of the big coil 1/k=(1/k1)+(1/k2) up to the point that the small spring fully compresses, than the stiffness of the spring becomes equal to stiffness of the large spring. that would be a good solution to a comfortable ride, if the shock absorbers are set up in that way that the car doesn't wiggle around on small springs.

remember springs hold the weight of the car , shock absorbers keep it from moving around.

i like your approach of measuring the spring rates, but you then mess it up by estimating corner weights.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 119 guests

cron